0:03

What would make a successful business leader sell everything he owns? Walk away from the life he built and turn a six month sabbatical into 14 years of discovery? This is the Your Next Success podcast, and I'm your host, Dr. Caroline Sangal. I'm a life first career coach and strategist on a mission to normalize questioning your career because I believe each of us is made on purpose for a purpose only we can fulfill. The longer we live out of alignment with who we are, what we do best, and why we're here, the more we miss out. And the more the world misses out on what only we can give. The Your Next Success Podcast is where we explore how to build a career that truly fuels your life. We talk about self-discovery, smart job, search strategies, professional growth, and you'll hear stories from people who've navigated big career transitions themselves so you can see what it's really like to make bold changes and feel inspired to create your own version of authentic success, one that is aligned, meaningful, and truly yours. In this episode of Your Next Success, I sit down with Ray Martin, he's an entrepreneur, award-winning business leader, marathon runner, mindfulness teacher and author of Life Without a Tie. Ray was once named Business Leader of the Year. But after a series of life changes, the end of his marriage, the loss of his father, and cracks in his company, he chose to step away from everything. What started as a short sabbatical became 14 years across 28 countries, raising money for orphanages, running marathons, and refining what it means to live authentically. We talk about the difference between the noisy inner critic and the quiet voice of intuition, the calculation that showed him how many days he might have left, and the guiding principles and rules for happiness that still shape his life today. This is about listening inward, choosing courage, and creating a life of real fulfillment.

Caroline 2:33

Welcome Ray to Your Next Success. So you have had such an amazing life. Outwardly successful, inwardly unfulfilled, and now I believe you're outwardly and inwardly successful, and joyful. As you know, one of the things that I'm trying to do is normalize questioning your career, pivoting, and you are such an example of what it looks like to do that and it all turn out so beautifully that you've written a book. Over 400 pages of awesomeness of what it's like to just embark on a wonderful self-development journey. So we are gonna get into that, but I'd love to dial it back. Thinking about your childhood, tell us where you grew up, what life was like for you as a child.

Ray 3:31

Yeah out of what I'd consider to be a normal upbringing, I grew up in a little suburb of London, like about an hour away from the capital. And went to a school, had hardworking parents who just wanted me and my brother to just get an education and get decent life. They'd come from quite a life of hardship and think their goal was just to make sure we didn't struggle as much as they had when they were parents. So, my brother and I have focused on just getting good grades at school and following what I now refer to as an off the shelf life story. Which is you know, to be happy and successful in life. You get married, you get kids, you get a good job. Get a house and all of that equals happiness. So you are led to believe. And so I would never really question that when I was a child, the only thing I did question when I was sort of 10 or 11 made no sense to me growing up in the sixties was that friends of my parents seemed to work really, really hard. And then when they retired, they didn't live very long. They just dropped dead within three or four years, most of them. And it always struck me as a child, why would human beings just work all their whole life and then just have this very little time at the end, to really do life and enjoy life and play and travel and learn and all these things? Just to find that it's very, very short I thought that just doesn't make any sense. So adults should maybe work twice as hard in their life or twice as productively let's say, for half of the years they work and earn twice as much, so then they got half their life off to spend the money they've accumulated, and play and learn and travel and do all those things. And I kept asking my teachers, why don't we do that? And none of them could really answer, of course.

Caroline 5:16

Cause they were still following the script.

Ray 5:18

But no one knew what I was really talking about. Even I didn't really know how that would work in practice, but I always had this vision as a young child that I'd somehow accumulate as much as I could in the first half of my life, had say to about 40 or 45, and then have Less pressure to do that, more time to actually live my life fully. And I didn't know, I forgot about it for years and years until my sort of life I built came crashing down. And then in the aftermath of the crash, I remember that thinking as a child and I came back to it.

Caroline 5:49

Ah, yeah. So let's talk a little bit about before that crashing down. So when you were, I guess in high school, I don't know what they call it there, but the equivalent of high school

Ray 6:00

Secondary school.

Caroline 6:01

Secondary school, and then you went on to, I guess, university. What were you thinking you wanted to study, thinking you wanted to do?

Ray 6:08

Actually I didn't go to university funnily enough, because that was part of the vision I had, was to be a successful and respected businessman. And in the way I looked at it at the time, I most, when I asked all my friends at school what they're gonna do at university, most of 'em said, I don't really know. I'm not sure what I wanna do with my life. I'll just do anything, to fill the time. And that didn't seem like to me a good way of choosing. I thought, no, I've actually got this vision of being a successful businessman. I might as well just go into the workplace and start learning how to do that straight away. So when I was 16, I started working. I worked in a bank. And I started to accumulate knowledge and understanding of the business world. I was shocked by some of the things I saw. But I started to accumulate knowledge with a goal in mind of eventually having my own business at some point. Didn't know when that would be.

Caroline 6:55

But still you had vision. You had such a vision.

Ray 6:57

Yeah. I just thought, I really want to get on with it. I wanna learn skills and get involved, get my hands dirty in business and really learn from there. And I believed in myself enough to think that I could do what I needed to do. And actually start my own company when I was 37.

Caroline 7:16

Yeah. And prior to that, I think you worked in a company that you described it as a, as more like a family or like a tribe. So what was it about that company culture that that you were fortunate enough to be in for a while that was really special for you? Or what did you wanna bring into your own company?

Ray 7:33

I think I was very lucky. I managed to find stumble across a group of people that had an interest in being who they are and really being authentic in their lives at work and in the rest of their lives. And they thought that one of the ways that could be mirrored would be to create a culture in our workplace of truthful and authentic communication. People being really giving each other radical challenge and radical support to live their dreams and do something brilliant in society and really helping each other grow and develop and learn leadership and communication skills so we could do something amazing in society. One particular guy had that vision and we all bought into it and thought it was brilliant and I learned a lot from working within that group. And one of the things that Robert, his name was always used to say to us, for those of you that really want to be truly wealthy, and that was addressing the thing I had when I was a kid. You know you're never gonna be wealthy on a salary working as an employee. You've got to, if you really wanna create wealth, you're gonna have to build your own organization. So that, for those of you who are interested in that, I'll help and support you on that journey. So it was brilliant to be in that group.

Caroline 8:44

How special. How special. And especially in the eighties too.

Ray 8:48

It was really, really rare.

Caroline 8:50

Yeah, I think it's maybe one of those things where the universe is planting you in positions to be able to accumulate that information. Okay. So then you decide, you know what? I do wanna start my own company. So what did you choose to do and how, what kind of leap was that for you?

Ray 9:08

I've always been really fascinated by what makes people grow and develop and perform well, and how do you get people aligned around a purpose and a mission and a vision and what really motivates people? Because I was interested to know it for myself so I could be motivated, but I was fascinated by all of that. And, I worked in an organization that did leadership development, coaching, training of leaders to help them get this understanding. And then when I saw how I was doing it as part of that company, as an employee, I thought I could see at least three or four ways we could innovate that and make it much better and improve it if we were to launch our own. This is, say me and my business partner,

Caroline 9:47

Yeah.

Ray 9:48

also worked in the same organization with me, there were two of us who had this picture of how we could make it better and differentiate ourselves and how we could take it to the next level if we left and set up our own company. And I was in sales, so I had lots of clients and contacts who bought services. So I thought all I've got to do is I've got just to work as hard as I do for the company I'm an employee of. If I work that hard for myself just offer something that's better and improved and the clients like it, we'll be okay. And that's exactly what happened.

Caroline 10:20

And so in that season, how did you define success and measure success? What did you think you were chasing?

Ray 10:26

Yeah, I think I partly defined it in terms of what our reputation would be in the marketplace. You know, that we would be seen as one of the best companies in our field. But, I also partly think unconsciously slightly defined it as the amount of material success that would come from it. So like having a nice home and all the trappings of a good life. But what I didn't really think about so much was the feeling of it. And I remember saying to my business partner that what was most important to me was to build something I was truly proud of that someone could walk into our offices see me and the team of people that we were working together, that we lived our principles. A bit like Gandhi in India. He used to say when he was asked by reporters on his journey around India, what his message was for the press, he would say, my life is my message. And he meant it in the way that he lived was his message. And I felt the same. I thought, if I can live this, truly embrace it and embody it and live it, and demonstrate it and show that it produces a better outcome than the other ways that companies are doing this, then that would be enough. And that was acknowledged and recognized because in 2002, after doing it for about five or six years, chosen by The Daily Telegraph, which is a business newspaper in England, I was chosen as the business leader of the year to receive their Business Leader of the Year award. That was recognition that I'd actually done exactly what I'd set out to do. It was one of my proudest moments when that happened.

Caroline 11:58

Yeah. And did you celebrate it? 'cause sometimes, people are setting a desire or a goal or achievement and it comes and they just quickly set another one. So you're always.

Ray 12:08

Guilty, guilty. I did that little, but it was still a great moment, even for a short while. And yeah, and we celebrated it. I celebrated it. I and everyone in the company did too, it was a great moment 'cause it really elevated us up into the league table of small consulting businesses.

Caroline 12:23

And so then business is booming

Ray 12:26

Yeah, it was pretty good for a short while, but then I didn't realize, that the business partner I've referred to a couple of times was also the woman I was married to. So she was my wife and business partner. And, one day a about six months after that moment, she came back from a meeting and very suddenly and unexpectedly announced that she was leaving the company and,

Caroline 12:45

Oh.

Ray 12:45

the marriage. And I didn't see that coming and it really shocked me to my core. And very shortly afterwards, almost at the same time, my father got very ill, and he died shortly afterwards. And so within a three month period of that lovely event, I was outta my home. I was losing my marriage. My company was gonna change irrevocably, and my dad had gone. So, it was an awfully difficult time for me. I kind of went into a very dark spiral at that moment.

Caroline 13:13

What did that feel like, you know, to have been at this highest highs and kind of living out what you thought was success? The house, the beautiful life, the business, the partner, the wife, the everything and then

Ray 13:27

Yeah. Well.

Caroline 13:27

Rugs pulled out.

Ray 13:28

As you can imagine the feeling was gloomy dark. I thought I'll never be happy again. I felt broken. I felt a lot of guilt and shame because I appeared publicly to the world to have had got everything and be really successful. But here I was with my life in taters and my marriage failing and stuff like that. And I sort of felt a bit like a fraud, if I'm honest. I was worried I'd be, you know, the imposter syndrome coming around.

Caroline 13:54

Yeah.

Ray 13:54

I was really worried I would be exposed in that way, or at least all my staff and team members would be questioning. Did I really mean all the things that I said I had as values and lived by, and I did, but it just, these were events were not in my control. I couldn't really, uh, prevented it, I don't think so, it was like also made me wonder what I needed to learn and I went into a period of deep reflection and I really wanted to. Really learn what I could from the, all of those events happening. So I never repeated it again. I was just a bit stuck, to be honest, for quite a while.

Caroline 14:32

And yet you're stuck. And then you had this, some could think of as a radical idea To do something different. Tell us a little bit about that.

Ray 14:43

Well I was really so down for about a year, I couldn't see a way out of it, and a friend said to me. One of the ways you can get yourself out of your funk if you are really low is you just forget about yourself for a while and find someone who really needs help and go a hundred percent in service to them. Do that and you really do it a hundred percent and you forget about yourself. Maybe something in the universe will crack open or some new insight or a land on your, in your thinking.

Caroline 15:11

Hmm.

Ray 15:11

So I trusted that piece of advice and I found out that a friend of mine in Australia had breast cancer. And so I contacted her and said she had a husband and a very young son and she was about to start chemo. And I said, how would you feel if I came out for a month and sort of took care of you and just was around supporting you and the family? She said, oh, that would be brilliant. Yeah, I'd love that. So I arranged to go out there and I also knew another friend who lived a little bit further away from her in Sydney, but I thought I'll visit her too at the same time 'cause it's on the other side of the world to England.

Caroline 15:43

Yeah.

Ray 15:44

So I went there for a month. Did my act of service and it was lovely, but nothing much had changed, to be honest. And I thought, oh, that advice probably wasn't that great. I still feel as messed up as I did before. I went up to Cairns to see my other friend, Judy Parker, and when I arrived she said, me and my mum are going to the theater tomorrow night. You know, do you want us to get you a ticket for the play? I said, yeah, please. We went to see this play at the theater, and I saw in the program that the production company at the theater were putting on a play called Out Of Order, which is about a British member of Parliment. It's by Ray Cooney. It's quite well known play if you know anything about that. I turned to them as a joke and said, I should be in that play. I'm from Britain. I've got the perfect accent. I mean, I'm not an actor. I didn't have any experience, I was just joking, really. And they looked at me seriously and said, well, we know the director of the play. Why don't you go to the audition on Sunday? I thought, that's a waste of time. I said, that's crazy. I've got no experience. I'm going home on Tuesday after the audition to England. I mean, I can't be in the play and I'd never get picked anyway. I said, well, why don't you just go for fun? So I thought, yeah, why not? I'll go for fun. It's a good learning experience. So I went to this audition, threw myself into it, and I couldn't believe it. Honestly, couldn't believe it. I got offered the leading role in the play, the main central character, comedic character of the whole thing. I was blown away and I said to the director, are you off your mind? You know, are you sure about this? You got a theater full of paying customers, and I'm a very high risk choice. I've never done anything like this before. They said, Ray, we really believe that you would be the best person and we know you've got no experience, but we'll get you ready. Three months of rehearsals if you are here, we'll make sure you're ready. And, uh,

Caroline 17:27

That's so exciting. You had nothing to lose, literally nothing to lose.

Ray 17:31

I made about three or four phone calls to clients who were expecting me to work with them and help them in the UK. And I told them this story. I said, look, I've been to this audition. I wasn't expecting it, but I feel like I'm being called to do this by some higher power. I said, I feel really bad but I'm not gonna do it unless you give me a hundred percent blessing to postpone the work we have. Because if you say you really need me to do that work, I'll do it. 'Cause one of my values is integrity, reliability.

Caroline 17:55

Yeah.

Ray 17:55

So they all said, no, I'll give you my blessing. Go and do that. I think that would be serving you really well to do that, go and do it. 'cause they knew my circumstance. And I said, brilliant. So I stayed in Australia for three more months and did the play. And it was just life changing. It was amazing. I loved it. I found parts. I've had to play this character called George Pickton. So I had to learn how to be him, how you know, his voice clothes and everything. And then on the plane, on the way home to England. After it had all finished, I noticed I had this feeling of dread in my body. I was so miserable about going home. I was thinking, God, I've got to go back to life as Ray the businessman again, and I don't really want to, and then I suddenly, it suddenly hit me like someone a hammer in the middle of my forehead. I went, oh my God. Ray the businessman is just a character that I've created over all these years. It's not me. I'm not that guy. I'm playing that guy. But that's me and that character are separate. I can choose a different character. There's a coach called Tony Robbins. I dunno if you've heard of him. He's American.

Caroline 19:01

Absolutely. He's got a lot of my money. Very good stuff.

Ray 19:04

You know, and his books are very informative and in his teachings, he says, you know, you're not just the actor in your story. You are the script writer and the director too. So if you want to change the way the story is unfolding, you can change the script. You can make changes to your character, you can change your dialogue, but also you can kill off the series completely. You can just write yourself out.

Caroline 19:24

Yeah.

Ray 19:25

I decided on the back of that epiphany, I decided to kill off the series of Ray, the businessman. Just say, right, I'm not doing this anymore. I quit being a businessman. I'm being a CEO. I'm just done with that. Whatever I do next, it's gonna be something new. So that's what happened.

Caroline 19:39

And you had been successful and saved up and, and now, were you realizing yet that you are living out that Inner desire?

Ray 19:51

I had to do the settlement of financial matters in my divorce, you know, I had to go into the details of finance. I wasn't anywhere near as wealthy as I thought I would be when I was 11. But when I started to look at it. Actually. I'm in quite a good position here. I could actually follow the advice of my friend Julie who'd said to me while I was in Australia doing the place. She said, why don't you take a six month sabbatical and go and do some traveling and get new insight into life itself. Just start from a clean sheet and see what you find. And, and she meant go to Asia because that's where all the eastern philosophy and mysticism was and you know, to tap into some of that. So when she first said that to me, I thought it was a ridiculous idea. But now I'd done the plan, had this insight. I thought actually doing a six months sabbatical is quite a good idea. And the only thing that was stopping me was I had this huge mortgage on the house in London.

Caroline 20:42

Hmm.

Ray 20:43

It was a house I didn't really wanna live in anymore. So I decided to sell the house in London. And that was a game changing decision because without that, I wasn't tied to any property or work. I had no kids. So I wasn't tied to any my family that decision totally untied me. From the life I'd created, the character I'd built. And that's why my book's called Life Without a Tie because that was the act of untying.

Caroline 21:09

Yes. Yes. And so you sell the house and nearly all your possessions. I mean, I think there's even a bible verse like, if you really want, to do well, you gotta sell all your stuff and, and then come and follow me.

Ray 21:23

But I have been inspired by, Ryan Nicodemus and Joshua Fields Milburn, who produced the book, The Minimalists, and they made a documentary on Netflix about living minimally and an experiment in their apartments where they got the entire contents of their apartments into boxes in their hallway and very carefully monitored what they took out only what they actually needed, like a toothbrush or a saucepan or whatever it was. And they said they used about 3% of the stuff they owned and the rest just sat in the boxes and they realized how much stuff that they and other people were carrying. And they also read a book called Stuffocation by James Wallman, which kind of echoed those themes, but also said the way that society is shifting in awareness and understanding is like I grew up in the generation with values based on materialism. You were somebody, if you had a lot of stuff, if you'd accumulated a lot of wealth, physically, you know, material wealth. the younger generations like Gen Z and Millennials, they were starting to say, no, we don't care about the stuff we value being free to have experiences. We want experiences. He called that experientialism values based on experientialism. And I was relating to that and I was thinking, I want that too. I don't wanna be encumbered by stuff. So I found a way to either sell or give away everything that I had in the house.

Caroline 22:42

How did that make you feel? Like when you first started doing it? Did you think, oh, what the heck are you doing? Are you doing the right thing?

Ray 22:49

Ofcourse, I had massive doubts.

Caroline 22:50

Yeah.

Ray 22:51

My mom. My dad passed away, but my mom thought I was crazy. And people I knew sort of thought, why don't you just rent the house and keep it? And there were all sorts of naysayers like that. But I sort of just followed the feeling. As the three principles, Sydney Banks, who channeled the three principles says you just follow the feeling, follow the energy of the feeling. And I was doing that cause that's like my inner wisdom talking, that's our inner wisdom. It speaks to us through the feeling. And so I knew I was right.

Caroline 23:18

But how do you distinguish though, like how do you distinguish between the, what the heck are you doing? You crazy? And the inner feeling of yeah, this is it.

Ray 23:29

That's a good question.

Caroline 23:31

How do you know?

Ray 23:31

One is they come from different parts of the body, because the rational mind is it always feels like it's up here. But the feeling is down in your belly and you just know even when the thoughts that you are having are alarming or worrying, you know if it's right. You know you're doing the right thing. I dunno how you know, but you just know. And then the second thing I started to do was I would look for confirmation signals that would confirm to me. So for example, do I do the play or not? I've got all these financial obligations, it's gonna cost me quite a lot of money to stop working for three months and not have to pay my mortgage. Am I being reckless and stupid and irresponsible, or am I doing the greater power in the universe wants me to do, What should I do?

Caroline 24:15

Yeah.

Ray 24:15

So I'm at this fork in the road and need to make a decision. I thought, I know I'll get a confirmation signal. I'll put this into the hands of all these clients I've obligated myself to. And if every single one of them, not just one or two, but a hundred percent of them give me their blessing. I'll take as a signal that the universe wants me to do this. And if they say no, I'll take it as a signal i'm not meant to do it. So I got the blessing from all of them and that gave me the confirmation signal that I needed. That's how I knew. Yeah.

Caroline 24:46

And so you sell your house, you sell your stuff. You're thinking of embarking on this journey, six months sabbatical, somewhere, nebulous, maybe in Asia. Did you have a itinerary or a plan or like what. I've heard you saying like 22, was it kilos or something? Was your backpack? How'd you decide what got to go with you?

Ray 25:11

Because I just took what I think I'd need for the journey ahead, six months of clothes and a laptop computer, which is the main thing. In a period where I was to sell the house and put it on the market, I'd actually had started dating someone in London who I met through a friend. Who was also gonna go and go to Thailand and sort of set up a life there. So, and she'd sort of suggested that we might do it together. She was slightly worried, that we didn't know each other that well, but I said, well, you can just come and move into my house while I'm selling it, and we're gonna have a crash course relationship. We're either gonna. Walk away from each other before either of us leaves or we'll go together, we'll know, you know, we'll find out.

Caroline 25:51

Yeah.

Ray 25:51

That worked out well. And she'd moved in, well within a couple of days. And we did go to Thailand together. I wrote about her name's Annie. I wrote about her in the book. And so I had someone who we mapped out and itinerary with. And so we had like a plan for the first few months. But I realized once I was there four or five months, it probably wasn't enough time. I was in a beautiful setting, Thailand's all luscious and paradise, beaches, and stuff, but I was full of fear, anxiety, guilt, shame. I just was so mentally noisy and agitated. I wasn't comfortable. And I was looking to try and find a way to get more inner peace. And I came across someone who said, why don't you do a vipassana meditation retreat? I never heard of that. I didn't know what the hell they were talking about. But I've discovered it's a 10 day silent meditation retreat in a Buddhist monastery with monks in Thailand, and they teach you the Buddhist Dharma teaching. You know, it brings peace of mind through and observation of what of your own mind. And so that's what I did. I did that.

Caroline 26:56

And you just were like, I'm in for character building experiences.

Ray 27:01

So the idea of being silent for 10 days was just like, what? Well, I'll give this a go. I'll do it to my best ability. And I found it was game changer for me. I came out of that monastery and as if I'd had a knob on the side of my head, like a volume dial, it

Caroline 27:16

Yeah.

Ray 27:16

up to 10 out of 10 on the noise level when I went in and when I walked out 10 days later, it was like someone had turned it down to a 1 out of 10. I felt so calm and so serene and grounded, and started to see the future of my life unfolding. And I knew I wasn't ready to go back to the UK. I wanted to stay longer. And it evolved my mindfulness practice, which I just acquired, I wanted to develop it and become more mindful and find us a group that was meditating regularly, somewhere in Asia I could join. So I decided to stay longer.

Caroline 27:49

Oh yeah. And, and so that six months.

Ray 27:53

Ultimately, turned into 14 years. I lived outta my backpack. I never had any idea it would, but one thing after one thing led to another, like I'd been there a year or two. In the pursuit of this mindfulness experience I was talking about, and I started to sort of visit places which touched my soul and my heart. An elephant sanctuary in Thailand and an orphanage in Nepal. I ran a picnic for 60 orphan children, and I saw the power of that kind of generosity and giving and support than what the difference it made. So I thought, I wish I could do something to help these people. I didn't know what to do. And then I met a guy randomly Caroline, who had run six marathons. He was 10 years younger than me.

Caroline 28:34

Yeah.

Ray 28:35

He told me about running marathons. And I, as he's described it, I got all these tingles in my body and I thought, gosh, sounds like there's something in this for me. I said to him, Matt, his name, Matt, do you think I could a marathon because I would be wanting to do it, to raise money for the orphanage? And looked at me, he said, well, you look quite fit. Have you ever run before? I said, no, I never. He said, if you stay here where I live for six months, which is a place called Chiang Mai. If you stay here for six months, I'll train you how to run your first marathon and you can do that and raise money. that's what I agreed to do. And I went into training with him and about months later, I ran the New York Marathon 1st of November, 2009, and managed to raise $15,000 from business contacts and people that I knew. And I had this big pile of money to then take back to Asia and give it to these causes and get stuff done. And that disposing of it took me another year.

Caroline 29:28

But how did that feel? How was your definition of success changing and how was it feeling now?

Ray 29:34

It was changing all the time. It was like moving towards what can I give all the time? You know how it was like deeply going in that direction. How can I be of service to humanity? What can I do? What can I give? How can I contribute? And I was loving that shift, and I wasn't really concerned at all about my own badges or medals or anything anymore. I was losing that sense of it. And I just absolutely loved being a hundred percent in service. It was a very empowering inner state of mine to be in. I felt I had everything I needed and whatever I needed in my own life came to me easily. Like if I needed a place to stay, someone offered it to me. It was like effortless. I had this feelling that everything was effortless, also we were doing great work, from raising all this money. I went on to do five marathons in total in my fifties, and raised about $50,000. And I've written a story of this in the book.

Caroline 30:25

But let's say in school and you had to do like physical education, Did you enjoy that stuff when you were little?

Ray 30:33

Well, yeah, I think I did, but I'd forgotten about it. I hadn't done that kind of exercise in recent years, but I must say I really loved the training and the discipline of it, and I thought, I'm making an investment in my own health and wellbeing for my future. 'Cause I was in my 50s then. I'm 65 now, and I feel like the healthiest I've ever felt in my life, you know? And so I feel very fortunate that I kind of had the opportunity to do this.

Caroline 30:59

Imagine what your life would be like if your career aligned with who you are, what you do best, and actually fueled the life you want. At Next Success, we support all ages and stages through career transitions from students exploring majors or careers to job seekers actively searching or re-imagining their next move to professionals committed to self-awareness and leadership growth. Stay connected and explore what's possible at nextsuccesscareers.com and follow @nextsuccessmethod on LinkedIn, YouTube, Instagram, and Facebook. You mentioned that people come into your life for a reason, a season or a lifetime. Tell a little bit more about that.

Ray 31:44

I think we all have questions about, if you meet someone romantically, is this the right person? When you work with people or do a project with some people and you have to leave it, it feels difficult And I will say to people who have challenges like that, well, you don't know whether or not you're meeting someone for a reason. So for example, I met Matt for a reason. He was the person who gave me the idea that marathon running could be a thing. he then showed me how to learn and do it. And then he was gone from my life. You know, so I met him for a reason, a really good reason. With Annie who I traveled with, it turned out to be nearly two years. I traveled with her and shared the life on the road with her. She taught me a lot about how to be an independent traveler, how to cope with the psychological challenges of being on your own and things like that. So I had a season with her. It wasn't one thing, it was a season of time, a year or two in which I absorbed and took from that engagement with her, a lot of learning and new understanding and new perspectives. And she became a bit of a teacher for me. And then there are people you meet who you know you're always gonna know them. You might not see them every day, but, I've met guys in my journey who I'm gonna be friends with till I die. And I just know that I will, and I'm always there for them. And vice versa. It's like you meet them, the connection. So special through shared values or shared vision of life. Something just cements your friendship together.

Caroline 33:14

Like the people in Australia, right? Because you went there multiple times and got to see their child grow up.

Ray 33:21

I've made friends everywhere, but probably about a dozen or so of those people, I'm really still in connection with strongly. One guy I met in Koh Tao in the early years in Thailand, he now runs my website for me. You know, it's like 20 years later we're still talking every day.

Caroline 33:37

Now you talked about this calculation you had done and this realization maybe around the time of your father passing. But tell us a little bit more about that calculation. What was that?

Ray 33:48

There's a lot of books written about this as well. But when my dad died, he was 73 and I thought, wow. It just really made me, it stopped me in my tracks after we had his funeral I just became quite curious about how many days he'd lived. So I worked it out with a calculator, 27,300 days. I thought, wow. That's not very many days for a whole life, given that you're an infant for some of them, and you are elderly for some. You know I thought, what's the average number of days that a UK man gets? 'cause the government and the pension companies, they track that very closely. So they know and it turned out that it was 80, which is 29,200 days. So, on the assumption that I would die on the average age, which obviously I don't know how that's gonna play out, but on the assumption that I would die on the average age, I worked out, how many days have I already been alive, you know, as in 45. And I worked that out and I took a couple of years off the end for being in a nursing home or something, not being able to do much. And it turned out that I was doing these sums when we buried my dad, that I had 12,500 days of my life left. No matter what I did with that time, that's all there was. You know? So the idea then of using the time to further my career or doing more work or something like that, it just came out of the equation because I read this book by Bronnie Ware, you might have heard of it. It's called The Top Five Regrets of the Dying.

Caroline 35:13

Yes.

Ray 35:14

And she works in a hospice. And so she only talks to people in the last days of their lives. And she says, what do you most regret about your life? And she said, they all say the same thing. Every single one of them said, the number one regret was I wished I'd lived my life true to myself, and not the life that others had expected of me. And the number two regret, by the way, was I wished I hadn't worked so hard because a lot of people die with money in the bank they could never spend. So, I took that on board and I thought, here am I working out what I should do with the rest of my life? And don't need to do any career stuff. I can do some, but I don't need to be obsessed with that. Actually, I thought, what's most for me to experience before I die and travel was something I'd never done and things like that. So I thought I just want to continue on this path for now and see where it leads. By the way, I've got, as we speak today, I can I monitor this? I've got five and a half thousand days left now.

Caroline 36:07

But now I wonder, I was thinking about this. So, if the data that went into the calculation was the average age of an average male in the UK and we know that there's so much data that you've never done anything average.

Ray 36:24

I know.

Caroline 36:25

You excel. And if you're conditioned your mind, and sometimes what gets your attention is your intention. And if you're constantly telling yourself you only have 5,500 days, I wonder if you would actually like, maybe that would be it. And then your body is getting ready. But what if you told yourself a new thing? What if that's a limiting belief? And you don't have to be that limit. Have you considered? Because what if you're wrong? Okay, you have more time. But have you considered adjusting this framework to just go ahead and Say you're above average, you're healthy, you've run five marathons, you've visited 28 countries, you have so many people that know and love you. What if you have 10,000? 15,000? It's a lovely challenge.

Ray 37:08

It's a lovely

Caroline 37:09

I'm just curious, like why not? Is there anything stopping you? Because you've never let any other limit or somebody else's definition become yours.

Ray 37:20

I don't see it quite as a limit. I guess that's how it is for me.

Caroline 37:23

Okay.

Ray 37:24

Because I don't have any children of my own, I'm not saying goodbye to anyone if I depart, if you know what I mean. Like I'm saying goodbye to friends and such. We've all got to go at some point. So that's the way that works. And I would consider if I made it to 80, that would be a bloody good life. You know? I would've had a good and full life. But if I get another 10 years, I'll take them. But I'm not attached or frightened of that, you know, I'm just at ease with whenever I need to leave.

Caroline 37:53

Beautiful. A beautiful distinction. Yeah. This non-attachment has been something you've really worked.

Ray 37:59

I just want to be at peace with whatever happens, because ultimately it's outside of my power. I'm not gonna decide when I'm leaving or not. So, I mean I'm comfortable with however it plays out and if I can stick around longer. Yeah, great. Brilliant.

Caroline 38:12

And so what is your vision for your life now? Like in your ideal situation, what do you want your life to look like?

Ray 38:18

When I ask people younger than me, they tend to answer that question in terms of a milestone or an outcome as few years down the road or something. And that's probably one of the biggest shifts for me is that I don't talk in those, I don't have a sort of end point, like more my vision is how I want to live each day, how I want to put my head down on my pillow and feel at the end of every day. And as long as I'm living that vision, which is have I been kind, have I been compassionate? Have I learned something? Have I been open to learning? Have I been curious instead of judgmental? Am I trustworthy and honorable? If I'm going to sleep every night and I know that's how I've lived that day. I am living my vision fully, so it doesn't need to take me anywhere. I think I've got enough material resources that I need for my life. I'm not hugely needing much. But, I think I've got exactly what I need. So I'm not worried about that. And I've got no burning ambition to be sort of massively famous or sell a million books or something like this either, although that would be nice.

Caroline 39:22

But you might, and you might though.

Ray 39:25

I'll tell you secretly that I would love to get my book made into a Hollywood movie. That would be great.

Caroline 39:30

Oh yes.

Ray 39:32

That would be super. I would really like that.

Caroline 39:34

That would be so good. And it could even be like a two or three movies in a series kind of thing. There's enough data in stuff in there. Oh wow. That'd be cool.

Ray 39:43

If you know about it, but there was a couple in England, who had some difficult periods in their life and they went on a journey of healing and they wrote a book called The Salt Path. The book was extremely well received. It sold so many copies that a film, someone bought the film rights to it, and they made a major film of it with Gillian Anderson from the X-Files playing the woman who was in it.

Caroline 40:06

Oh, wow.

Ray 40:07

However, the sting in the tale is, turns out three or four years later after the film's made that they had lied about their story and a lot of it's fake and they weren't at all who they said they were in the book and there's a lot of corruption and skullduggery behind it. And so they're in a big controversial legal fight. Now that couple, I dunno the facts, obviously.

Caroline 40:27

Interesting.

Ray 40:28

I'm not alleging anything here, but my story is literally, if anyone's gotta read it, it's literally what actually really happened. And it is all true. Every word of it, you know. So that's why I think if it was made into a film, I'd be very happy because it's a really is a true story.

Caroline 40:44

And who would you want to be playing you? Which actor would you think would be the best you? I'm just saying.

Ray 40:50

No idea. I really don't have any idea. I don't even know the names of most actors, but I don't really mind. Because I'd be obviously needing perhaps two people because I started when I was 45 and I'm much older now so.

Caroline 41:02

Right, right.

Ray 41:04

I'm sure they'll find someone who'd be up for it.

Caroline 41:07

Maybe it could be the businessman who never did any acting before and all of a sudden becomes this great sensation that he becomes inspired to do his own thing.

Ray 41:15

Brilliant. I wouldn't care. I wouldn't care, It would just be such a lovely moment to be experiencing as, as I was alive. That would be brilliant. I think my interest in that is mostly that I think. What I've experienced is comment on so many people I meet. Like it's this feeling that your all this effort into your life. So, to try and climb a ladder to get to the top of a wall, only to find when you reach the top of whatever your wall was. For some people it's to be a professional footballer or something. You see, it doesn't matter. But once you get to the top of the wall on your ladder and you suddenly go, oh my God, I think I put my ladder against the wrong wall. I'm here, but this isn't what I really wanted.

Caroline 41:57

Yes.

Ray 41:57

This isn't the feeling that I imagined when I set this vision up. And I think this is a really common experience. I speak to hundreds of people a year who tell me this. So I'm writing out there for them.

Caroline 42:12

I saw the same, people being outwardly successful and inwardly unfulfilled. And even myself, I had that same experience because I achieved as a scientist and I commercialized products and I got awards and then I achieved as a recruiter globally for the chemical industry. And I got top performer awards year after year. And yet. I was feeling, is this it? Is this really all there is? And then my body started having these symptoms that I didn't connect were because of this, I had high blood pressure and class two obesity, three different medicines, an irregular heart rate, a cardiac ablation, all these things. I feel like God or universe is gonna give you messages and you're gonna get little message, little message, little message. And then you might get sat down. And now nicely, I got sat down by my beautiful husband who questioned what was I doing? And he was saying he's concerned we wouldn't have another anniversary. And so I took that and it became my fuel. And so that's when I made my company Next Success. So I'll help next chapter explorers become authentic success creators. And authentic success is how you define it. Not somebody else's ladder, not somebody else's wall. So ultimately, what do you want your life to look like? And how can your career fuel that life? Because when you don't have that sorted out, it's so easy to get caught up in the career and in, this is what I need to do for the promotion and this is what I need to do for the award or for the raise. And yet the people I said mattered most got the worst of me because I was yelling at my kids and yelling at my family and so exhausted by the time I was with them. I was there but not present. And then I started to question, what am I doing? And why does it matter if I help all these other people with their careers, and the people who call me a beautiful name like mom or wife, they're getting the worst of me. That's not right.

Ray 44:16

I completely resonate with everything you're saying. Yeah. That was what, how I saw it. But I was also just shocked wherever I went in the world, whoever I met, and I started to have conversations like this, that people go, well, that's how it is for me. I didn't realize so many people were dissatisfied or unhappy in their situations. And so my mission in the world has become much more about being a torch bearer for greater human consciousness than it's ever been before, and trying to shine the light of that torch onto people's true path and saying, what is the path you want to walk? Because it's not about how much money you make or, how famous you are. It's, for me, it's much more about what is it that puts you in your element where your heart and soul are aligned, and what is it that gives you joy to do even because some people I know get joy from making the tea. They just love doing that.

Caroline 45:09

Yes. Yes.

Ray 45:10

You can see it in their faces. It's whatever brings joy. And we need all of those things. People want to be poets, musicians, artists, performers, and you know, at school you're told, oh, you better not do that. You better get yourself a real job.

Caroline 45:24

Do anything you want except art. Accept music. Yes.

Ray 45:28

We need those people because those people are the ones who inspire us to live our lives properly.

Caroline 45:36

So what advice do you give when you have somebody that you meet and they are feeling this tension? What's your go-to?

Ray 45:45

It mostly is to say, if you could just start from a total clean sheet of paper, completely start from zero, what would be the picture of the life you want to head towards? What would it look like? What would it feel like to be in it? What would you be doing? What would that feel like? What would be the nature of that? And just have conversations even if it feels like a complete wild fantasy in the beginning, the more reality those conversations put and shape around it. I could say, you've talked that through, I could say, what would be one tiny little step from where you are in the life you're in right now that might take you a little bit closer to that? And what would that involve? You know, what would stop you from taking that step? And then you just get them to start. Because I'd say to anyone who's interested in finding their own entry path, it doesn't matter how long it takes, as long as you're moving towards this picture. If it takes 20 years, it's okay. It means you're gonna be totally fulfilled in 20 years.

Caroline 46:42

Yeah, and you could change your mind. That's the thing too. And exploring an idea or starting to articulate it a little bit, doesn't mean you have to do it. I like your idea of what is one small step, and then what would that look like and how could that be? And really defining your moves with your intention, not other people's intention.

Ray 47:02

I don't know if you ever used like a navigational tool as you're sort of plotting coordination where they crossover. Once you get your vision, then you can reflect on what are my values, what's most important to me? That I show up every day embodying. Like if I value community or teamwork, I don't wanna choose a job as a data analyst where I'm sitting crunching numbers on a spreadsheet on my own. I'm just not gonna feel great about that. I need to be in a team actively participating and engaging with other people every day, otherwise I'm not alive. Finding out more about one's own values through deep reflection and being guided helps, but you can do it yourself. So vision, values, beliefs like you were saying, you know, what are the beliefs I hold that really empower me? 'Cause a lot of people don't realize it, but they've got quite a few beliefs they got from their family that are really empowering. Like the idea that being generous is a really useful belief. There's a lot of generous people and it is a very empowering thing. The opposite is having the limiting belief, which is, I'm not good enough. I'm not clever enough, I'm not ready enough. I'm not old enough. I'm not something enough. This is a Brene Brown's done some brilliant work around that. You know, she's a cheerleader for that work. And, that is to be explored and examined because if you can set aside even one or two of those, you're gonna move towards your picture much more quickly, I think.

Caroline 48:22

Now, you mentioned a lot of books in your book. Did you read those books along your journey, or did you read those books while writing your books?

Ray 48:31

It's a mixture of some of books I referred to, like the book on transitions I'd read years before, but I thought it was relevant to quote it. But the books on minimalism I read while I was writing. Some of the other quotes, like the Top Five Regrets I read that as my life was falling apart because I was desperately trying to find some hope in a very dark period. And that's what inspired me to read that book. But I mean, I read a lot all the time. I'm constantly reading as a coach, we do.

Caroline 48:58

Absolutely. But when you were traveling, did books go in your backpack or you found local libraries or just.

Ray 49:05

I carried one or two at a time.

Caroline 49:07

PDFs and stuff?

Ray 49:08

Real books at a time then swapped them with other people. But eventually I got a kindle. I've got is the first edition, but original one from 2006. So my kindle's now 20 years old nearly.

Caroline 49:21

Still going. You didn't drop it of all those places.

Ray 49:25

Same one.

Caroline 49:25

Wow. All those public transportation and it still survived.

Ray 49:29

So, I enjoyed reading the most were always from the spiritual teachers. Like Thich Nhat Hanh, the Zen Monk. Osho I read a lot of his books. The Dalai Lama, these books were the ones that really fed me the most I would think.

Caroline 49:44

You had put some guiding principles in your book. Have those changed or evolved over time for you?

Ray 49:50

I realized in the first few months how psychologically fragile I was because I was anxious and worried and scared all the time and a lot of noise. And so I thought I'll do this for past retreat. Then that inspired me to come up with 10 guiding principles that I wrote for myself, my instructions to myself to keep myself psychologically safe. And so there was, the principle is about non-attachment. One was about self-acceptance, loving myself more. 'Cause I was, I'm often very critical towards myself. One was about frugality and modesty. One was about contribution. There are 10 in total and so I thought I share those in the book in case people are wondering what a set of guiding principles might look like. I use mine as an example, not to say these are the ones you should have, but these are the ones I came up with for me. I explained to people how I got there so that they can do it for themselves. And then my editors said to me when I finished the book and wrote this, had the story fall completely finished. Can you write the final chapter of the book to say what, what you, what was the wisdom that you gained from the entire 14 year period? And that's when I came up with the six Rules for Happiness in Life, which formed the last part of the book because it was obvious to me that I had learned something seriously substantial that was transferrable to everybody. And I thought, I better write down what that is. And so I, I've distilled the knowledge into six for happiness. And most people, I think would relate to those.

Caroline 51:22

So how do you stay happy now? Are you following those principles because any interview I have seen that you did you just have this beautiful smile. Just this joy and beauty. It just like exudes from you. But like how do you keep that?

Ray 51:38

Well, I do my best. I wanna be honest with anyone that's listening or watching this, not every day I'm like in this version of me. Even today I had one or two really half administrative calls with a company that deals with taxation and stuff like this. I get so wound up in those conversations, I lose any sort of sense of kindness or compassion become sort of grumpy and irritable very quickly. Like everyone, I kind of go in and out of different mental states, but what I try and do, because I work in this field of trying to guide others, I try and use my own life as a learning post and try and see when I go into negative territory, let's say, what can I learn from that's gonna help me teach it better? You're not your thoughts, you are the observer of your thoughts. And my third rule of happinesss after six is become your own observer. Because if you can go about your daily life and be in these events from the observer place, rather than you being the victim in the story. Then you can be quite detached from what's happening and you can learn something from it, which you can teach others. When I'm in these crappy moments, and I've had a few this week, I think, oh, that's good. I've, that's a good story. I can tell other people that will help me teach that. So it's actually quite exciting in a way.

Caroline 52:56

Yeah, happening for you. Happening for you.

Ray 53:00

Even the worst moments become the teachable moments.

Caroline 53:03

Do you still do meditation?

Ray 53:05

I do, yeah. That's essential. I think said the first rule for happiness, build a strong core foundation of self-awareness. My message to the world is unless you are prepared to commit yourself to constant reflection and quiet time and stillness and self-awareness, you haven't got a chance of living a good life, from pillar you are gonna be pulled to post because the world's getting more confusing, more toxic, and more and dangerous all the time. So be finding a way back to your peaceful center on demand whenever you need it.

Caroline 53:40

You also wrote something that you said, it's not the acquiring of information that transforms one's life, applying it every day and understanding good practice is quite different from practicing what we understand. Tell us more about that.

Ray 53:54

Well, I learned that from Thich Nhat hanh. He was a zen buddhist monk who has a massive community that he left behind when he died. And, his teaching was, mediation isn't about sitting on a cushion with your eyes closed and your legs crossed. He said, about how you show up in difficult conversations and the way in which you bring your mindful energy to speak with loving kindness to another person who's really cheesed you off. That's when it counts. It's in, it is in those moments when you need the mindful energy. So you can be compassionate and be kind in how you bring yourself to it. The sitting on the cushion, he described it as, you've got these meditative practices which kind of like it was a mobile phone we were talking about, that's the equivalent of plugging the phone into the electricity so you can charge the battery.

Caroline 54:43

Yeah.

Ray 54:44

So you're not doing anything you're sitting to charge your mind from this battery. And then later someone's gonna turn one of your apps on and try and use it to do something. And that's when you need the mindful energy to be dispensed.

Caroline 54:58

Yes.

Ray 54:59

You've got the charging and you got the apps. Well, the applied energy then is the critical thing. How you use that energy to diffuse difficult and angry and irritable conversations, yeah.

Caroline 55:13

Now I'm curious since the book left off to now, what happened to the Love story?

Ray 55:20

The one I finished the book was with someone I met, I moved from Thailand to Poland in the end for a love story.

Caroline 55:29

Yeah. But now you're back in London area.

Ray 55:34

Two years ago I met the love of my life. My life partner.

Caroline 55:38

Yeah, you'd been looking and you kind of defined. Now how well does your partner match your rough sketch of ideas that you mapped out at one time.

Ray 55:49

So I am in a very happy and beautiful relationship with, and funny enough, her name's Carolyn. It actually is true.

Caroline 55:58

Great name, but does she spell it LYN or LINE.

Ray 56:01

She does, she does, that's why I asked you 'cause she spells it diffferently. But I'm very, very happy about that. Yeah.

Caroline 56:07

Oh, that's great. I'm glad it worked because it's like, you wanna be like, and now what happened? And now what happened? You became such a great writer, even with your blog and things, and just, I was chuckling at the creativity that you had said. And I do wonder if back in those times, I would just randomly be searches. I think I did read maybe a couple of entries that you had put on your blog at the time. But, when you wrote your book, did you go back to your blog to help fill it all in or how'd that work?

Ray 56:36

I did because I was writing about a 14 year period

Caroline 56:39

Yeah.

Ray 56:41

And you know, unless you got like a super computer memory, I couldn't remember, did I go there first? And how long did I spend there? My blog gave me a kind of a chronological reference of where I had been and how long, and some of the key things that I'd forgotten about in the grand scheme of things. But I wasn't really writing about those things so much as just to pinpoint when they happened. Because I didn't wanna tell the story out of time and missed something out or put something in later when it happened earlier or something like this so I was just wanted to be factually correct. Yeah.

Caroline 57:16

How about of all the places you've visited, if you could only go back to one. What would you choose?

Ray 57:27

I went back this winter, just gone Christmas last year. I did go back, I went back to Chiang Mai.

Caroline 57:33

Oh yeah. I've heard some other people talk about that too. I feel like maybe I need to go there sometime.

Ray 57:38

Oh it's a amazing place I hadn't been there for seven years and I really wanted to go back and I wanted to take Carolyn there to see the life I had there. And I managed to stay again with the same Thai family that I lived with when I was there.

Caroline 57:52

Wow.

Ray 57:53

So I had 10 weeks in Asia over the winter, and a lot of it in Chiang Mai, we did do some other traveling as well, but we were mainly based there and it was just absolutely gorgeous. Absolutely gorgeous. So I would probably go back there.

Caroline 58:05

Did you bring suitcases and how much did they weigh?

Ray 58:09

It took one bag. You're allowed one piece of luggage.

Caroline 58:12

You still did it.

Ray 58:13

But still under 20 kilos. I can go for 10 weeks somewhere and not really take much more than a napsack now.

Caroline 58:20

Wow.

Ray 58:21

I know that I don't need really that much.

Caroline 58:24

That's amazing. What's next for you?

Ray 58:28

What's next is life. It's always unfolding. I'm working on an idea for a second book perhaps that's something I'm exploring. i'm doing lots of leadership coaching in the UK for people in the business world. And that's occupying quite a bit of my time quite happily. And I love that work. I'm now part of a family, 'cause Carolyn's got children and grandchildren and I'm enjoying a life never had before. Being a member of a big family and looking after the grandkids. I've never had this.

Caroline 58:56

That's nice.

Ray 58:58

Next couple of years with me if it was just filled with that, I'd be totally thrilled. But I just turned 65 as well. I'm reaching a point where I'm realizing I'm not gonna work at the same frenetic pace I used to.

Caroline 59:10

Good. Yes.

Ray 59:12

Yeah. But I just wanna be here for those people that really need support from someone like me who can help them on their own path.

Caroline 59:21

Where can people find you if they wanna go find the book or learn more about you? How can they find it?

Ray 59:28

I created a website called LifeWithoutATie.com And that was mainly because when a lot of people started reading the book, they were all contact me saying, have you got any pictures of any of these places and events? And I said, well, I couldn't have put photos in the book. It's a paperback.

Caroline 59:43

Yeah.

Ray 59:44

But what we'll do is we'll put all the photos up on the website so you can see them so that if you go to LifeWithoutATie.com, you'll see loads and loads of pictures from the 14 year journey in different parts of it. And there you can, it's got links to Amazon and different places and I people, if they want signed copies, you can get those from me. I'm in LinkedIn is where most people find me in the business world on LinkedIn.

Caroline 1:00:06

Awesome. I loved the book, so now it's gonna be this interesting experience of, is the picture that I put in my head, how does it align with the real pictures of some of these places? Right. But you did a nice job. I'll be like, oh, this was like Jurassic Park, or this was like, I'm like, oh, oh, okay, cool.

Ray 1:00:24

Yeah, certainly the picture on the front cover is actually really me going to Everest base camp. That's a picture of me that was taken on the way. It was taken in 2010.

Caroline 1:00:35

Oh, awesome. So I'm big on authentic success. We've touched a lot about this in our conversation, but for you, how do you define authentic success?

Ray 1:00:47

The degree to which I can choose what I do with my time and have discernment over that, and the degree to which I feel I finish each day knowing that I've lived in alignment with my values, vision, purpose, and what I truly believe about the life I want. And if I'm just ticking those boxes daily, I feel the most successful person alive.

Caroline 1:01:14

Ray, thank you so much for sharing just a tiny glimpse into your story. Throughout our time here, I highly encourage everyone to go read Life Without a Tie. It is such a beautiful book, such wonderful example of someone who's pivoted and loved it.

Ray 1:01:35

Thank you very much.

Tara 1:01:36

Thanks for listening to Your Next Success with Dr. Caroline Sangal. Remember, authentic success is yours to define and includes aligning your career to support the life you want.