Patrick Kamba 0:00

One of my uncle came to celebrate I was an engineer. He had the very bad idea to say, "Ah, Patrick, I'm so happy you are an engineer, but really I thought you would become a doctor, an MD." And then my father said, "Yes, Patrick, explain to him why you are not an MD." The day of my celebration to become an engineer.

Speaker 0:24

This is the Your Next Success podcast, and I am your host, Dr. Caroline Sangal. we explore how to build a career that truly fuels your life. And you will hear stories from people who have navigated big career transitions themselves. So you can create a life, first career and become your own version of authentic success,

0:48

have you ever hit a goal that you'd been chasing for years and then thought, "Okay, I made it. Now what?" Today's guest knows that feeling well. Patrick Komba has led global teams in pharma for more than 20 years, from vaccines to a COVID response, and he wrote a book called Quiet Ambition. When he was young, he thought success was money and a title. But when he got the title he was seeking, he started asking a different question. He started asking about how did he actually want to live his days. Let's listen in our conversation with Patrick Kamba

Caroline 1:30

Patrick Kamba, welcome to Your Next Success. I am looking forward to this conversation,

Patrick Kamba 1:36

Thank you, Caroline. Thanks for having me. I'm looking forward to, by the way.

Caroline 1:40

Awesome. We are gonna get to all of the amazing things that you do, including your awesome book, "Quiet Ambition," that I had the privilege of reading. We're going to get to that, we're gonna get to even more about your fantastic career in leadership, including in the pharmaceutical industry. All of those things will unfold in our conversation. can you help us understand the very beginning? Where were you born, and what was life like for the very youngest little Patrick?

Patrick Kamba 2:10

Actually, my parents were born in the Congo, so the- Belgian, uh, Belgian colony. They moved and left Congo in the '60s because my father wanted to become a doctor, an MD. So he went to France in the '60s, and I was born in the '70s in France. So my father discovered the snow, the cold, and the rest in the '60s and then in the '70s, and then I came. I studied, and until 16 or 17 years old, I was convinced I would do medicine like the father- of course. And then my heart was beating a bit differently, and I finally decided to become an engineer, and this is where I decided to go to Belgium, not France, because my parents migrated to France. I decided to go to Belgium. Why? I had one of my uncle who became an engineer in Belgium, and the study curriculum was interesting to me, so I decided to go to Belgium, and I studied chemistry as an engineer then, uh, I was thinking about working in chemical industry like, steel industry, ink, paint, this kind of thing. So this is what I did. And at certain moment I had the opportunity to work as a consultant in transportation as a project manager. And this is the turning point, because around 2008 I had the opportunity to work in a pharma company, GSK, to do project management on vaccines. So moving from the trains to vaccines. That was a big change in my, in my career, and I can say in my life. I really enjoyed it because it was public health, it was taking care of people, and of course still this mindset of medicine, treatment, caring, health, where I was, I was born into and of course raised in, because my mother was also a nurse. So I had a lot of- health and medicine around me. I was almost

Caroline 4:07

Got you. your parents, were they married and then they came together?

Patrick Kamba 4:12

yes, they were married in the '60s i- in, in France.

Caroline 4:16

And did you have any brothers and sisters also growing up in the same household?

Patrick Kamba 4:21

yeah, one boy, one girl, and then two boys again. And so my eldest brother was born in Congo. And a year after, my father left to study in France, and he had a scholarship to study medicine. So my oldest brother didn't see my father during roughly one year. And then he rediscovered his father And of course he didn't recognize him. What a surprise

Caroline 4:44

these sacrifices. I think sometimes people- in this latest generations they, they don't recall or they, they're not even aware of the tremendous sacrifice that some parents have made for the betterment of the overall future. growing up, were there any activities that you loved doing more than others, aside from school, right? Obviously you did very well in school. But when it was just you guys kinda hanging out, what sort of things did you really love doing?

Patrick Kamba 5:11

Oh, p-playing soccer. Very basic, very standout.

Caroline 5:16

Yeah.

Patrick Kamba 5:16

a man- young man, let's say, playing soccer with friends during afternoon and afternoon and afternoon. That

Caroline 5:22

Oh, that's cool.

Patrick Kamba 5:24

And of course ...watching football or scor- soccer on TV- I would say of course. Because as a reminder, there was no internet. So we had, uh, you know, previous old school game like Atari and all, a lot of brands that nobody knows anymore. And Commodore and all of this, huh, because of course the young generation don't know. will not even- talk about smartphone.

Caroline 5:48

Right. There was just the regular phone with the big- curly wire. Yes, yeah And you'd have to drag it all over-

Patrick Kamba 5:54

Yes

Caroline 5:54

all over the house.

Patrick Kamba 5:55

but I already was in love with cooking because I started to cook, I was five or six years old. It was my second passion, cooking,

Caroline 6:04

culturally do a lot of men cook, uh, in the Congo? Or this was just your mother helping you as well?

Patrick Kamba 6:10

Uh, I think it's cultural. the legend in a way is that if we are sent somewhere far, we need to be able to not die because we are starving, so we need to be able to cook for ourselves. That's basic.

Caroline 6:23

I see. I see. So you started this passion of cooking w- from a very young age, and your family nurtured that and helped you. what are the favorite sort of things that you enjoy cooking?

Patrick Kamba 6:36

So I enjoy actually cooking from a completely different countries. I can do Japanese, I can do Thailand, but I can do France, Italy, Congo, Morocco.

Caroline 6:47

That's awesome.

Patrick Kamba 6:48

At least. Maybe others I have forgotten. Yes, Chinese also.

Caroline 6:52

That's amazing. Now are you the sort of person that when you cook, you follow a recipe exactly? Or are you the sort of person that when you cook, you kind of loosely look at the recipe, but maybe don't measure every single thing out because you understand more about the interactions or the flavor profile? Which style of chef are you?

Patrick Kamba 7:14

L- let's say my style evolved in the sense- that at the beginning I was following recipes to get- the concept, and now I'm more- adapting and even from time to time creating. So it's evolving. You know, it's about having foundations at first- and then you use it you embrace those foundations, and you try and make something new.

Caroline 7:37

Yeah. And it's, it's such a transferable, um- skill. So no, no wonder that you had this evolving love of cooking, definitely enjoying time with team interaction kind of things, soccer, watching this- ...on the TV, enjoying the time with your family. Education obviously was very important in that your father moved to pursue education, so growing up in this household was such a wonderful dynamic of- supporting each other, encouraging each other's growth and passions with the education and all of that. That's amazing. So when it came time in high school for you to decide to even continue on with school, how did you decide where you were going to go and what you were going to do?

Patrick Kamba 8:29

when I was 12 or 13, I was already very clear on where I wanted to go. I was clear. I was really convinced that I would study medicine. I told my parents that I wanted to go to school where I stay the week and go back home during the weekend. I am the one who asked my parents. They were shocked, by the way. But I was very clear on what I wanted. That's why at 12 I said, uh, "Find a school where I will work."

Caroline 8:56

Okay

Patrick Kamba 8:57

Indeed, I was in that school from the Monday to Saturday morning, came back during the weekend, during seven years,

Caroline 9:02

so your middle school, high school kind of years, you were away. Almost like boarding school. Something of that

Patrick Kamba 9:09

Yes. Yes, exactly. Yes

Caroline 9:12

And you chose that because you wanted to ...focus on your study, then come enjoy? Or-

Patrick Kamba 9:18

Yes. Yes. And because also m- my oldest brother and sister were not so much performing at school, and I didn't want to follow this path. It has influenced me. Like, this is not the kind of life I want. Because there was some tension, as you can imagine, when kids are not- performing at school, let's say parents are a bit tensed. And it influenced me. I said, "I don't want to follow this path. That's why I want to stay away from all of this-" "pressure, tension, in a way isolate to focus on my goals."

Caroline 9:49

And your parents, because you came with that idea, that desire, they wanted to support you and your learning. And plus by that time they probably realized, oh, this, this young child, anything he says he wants to do, he studies, he does it, he tries it. So let it- let's see how it goes. Gave you some space to not have to be in the day-to-day, did you get this done? How is this going? But more on your own. Interesting. Okay. And so

Patrick Kamba 10:21

a Dark side

Caroline 10:22

What is the dark side?

Patrick Kamba 10:24

Pressure, of course, because now everybody's looking at me. Everybody has hope and expectation on me only. Like- "Please, Patrick, do something different. Do better than your brother and sisters." And then you start. When friends are visiting, "Oh, that's great. Patrick is performing so well at school. I'm sure he will do this. He's the hope for the family." And then you start- to manage pressure. Hopefully I was far- at school, but still, during the weekend, "Ah, this is Patrick, the guy who is doing so well at high school, the guy who will do and be our future MD in the family, the next generation."

Caroline 11:09

Aha.

Patrick Kamba 11:10

another part of the story.

Caroline 11:12

So you welcome this ability to be a little bit on your own. You want this desire to focus on your studies, and now not only do you have your own expectations to want to be different than those who came before you with your siblings, but now you're feeling it even more so of like, It's all on you, Patrick." "You're the one we're counting on to do well."

Patrick Kamba 11:34

And he stayed a long time, believe me. But we'll have the opportunity to talk about

Caroline 11:39

Yeah. And then how, how did you work through that or not in ter- it's so, so hard because you're just developing your sense of self. And this now gets a little bit, intertwined. how did you try to keep your sanity, and keep your- ......ability to just have learning be fun, or was it not fun for a while?

Patrick Kamba 12:02

it, was fun because at the end of the day, it was my goal, my ambition, really. But indeed, when my marks, my grades were a bit below expectation, my parents were very disappointed. They told me that, okay, they were expecting more. They are disappointed. And it was hard weekend. But don't forget, there was no smartphone, so the pressure was only on the weekend, That's the bright side. Today it would be different because you may have short messages from your parents during the week- with pressure. Now it's different. I mean, At that moment it was different. I only had them during the weekend, so I had the full week, in a way, to be energized and at the end be on the same boat with other kids because I was not the only one who was ambitious, wanted to move forward. some of us all together on same boat, but then in the weekend we had some, from time to time, some, some pressure. But I never lost my, my compass in the sense that I wanted to succeed. I believed a lot in me, even if, I mean, as an adolescent it was not always easy.

Caroline 13:09

What did you learn from that time? Like, as your grades were maybe not up to expectations, did you take that as oh, let me see, how am I spending my time? What am I doing? Like, was it that the material was challenging and you needed help to understand? Or were you maybe not managing your time as well as could be? Like, what were the lessons- ...that you took from that realization Or, or was the grade for your expectations, it was fine, it just wasn't fine for your parents' expectations?

Patrick Kamba 13:41

Ah. No, it, it was not fine for me. But it was really hard for me, and I, I would have loved at that time to get more, let's say, emotional support from my parents. Because it was hard. I mean, at the end I was between 12 and 17, 18 in school- like 50 miles from home, and coming back only during the weekend. The main lesson for me was never give up. Never give up. Even if the grades are not saying that you're working hard, you know you're working hard, and keep on pushing. Don't give up. That's really the point. And at certain moment, yes, I asked for further help. I got it, and at certain moment something switched on, and I felt inside actually, uh, that I was, let's say, managing and handling some courses differently. And then I was really skyrocketing in my head. Not yet in the grades, but I felt that something was happening. So my message is don't give up, but ask for help. And this is where I... It was really one... the first turning point, let's say. Somebody helped me- one afternoon to give, to give me the confidence, the self-esteem on maths, on the way of reasoning. He was saying, "But you see? You can do this. You don't need me anymore. I can go." And then I felt, "Yes, maybe I can." It was two or three hours of maths. It changed everything. Then I studied physics, then I decided to go to Belgium, become an engineer, and I did two masters in engineering. I have two.

Caroline 15:18

Wow. Okay. So this, this high school experience turns out to be good. You end up then going to university, studying engineering in undergrad as well?

Patrick Kamba 15:28

a bit hard to explain for US compared to, let's say, uh, France, Belgium, but i-in, in a summary, you have two kind of engineer in Belgium. Uh, one is more in kind of college, another one is more university. One is four years, the other one is five years. So I did both, actually.

Caroline 15:46

Okay. For the undergrad, you did a four-year- and a five-year, and then you went to master's and got two master's as well?

Patrick Kamba 15:53

Let's say I did the undergrad four years, and then I went to the master five years. But I did not do four plus five. I did four and then only two there was a option to start at the end of the second year actually.

Caroline 16:08

Okay. So this period of the next five-ish years, you end up getting multiple degrees, master's degrees. and by this time you decided medicine is not for me?

Patrick Kamba 16:20

Or actually before. I mean, at the end of high school, I decided that medicine was not for me. I can tell you it was a huge disappointment, but I only understood this high disappointment when I was graduated with this, my second degree as an engineer. That is where I discovered that it was so huge a disappointment. What do I mean here? One of my uncle came to celebrate I was an engineer. He had the very bad idea to say, "Ah, Patrick, I'm so happy you are an engineer, but really I thought you would become a doctor, an MD." And then my father said, "Yes, Patrick, explain to him why you are not an MD." The day of my celebration to become an engineer. That day I discovered and realized that it was such a disappointment. So it was a bit

Caroline 17:12

what did you say? Right, but, but what did you say? Because now

Patrick Kamba 17:16

shocked. I was

Caroline 17:18

and this shift ha- happened in you, right? So this shift of realizing, "I don't think medicine is my path, my calling of what I want to do, what I'm-" suited for. Therefore, let me pivot. Let me focus on more of this, engineering and some of the chemistry, physics, those kind of things," because you're following your passion. And you're thinking, "I'm following my passion. Shouldn't my parents be excited I'm doing something amazing that I feel very-" ......called for?" And then you realize... It's amazing. Right.

Patrick Kamba 17:52

I was shocked. That, that is as simple as that. I mean, can you imagine you are celebrating something and somebody saying, "No, but, uh, in a way you failed." What can you say? What can you do? Nothing.

Caroline 18:04

only from family. Only

Patrick Kamba 18:07

course. Of

Caroline 18:08

right? Right? Ugh. And it's like on one hand they love you so, so much. On the other hand, how did our dreams and goals and desires- ...and greater purpose, h- how did it become their focus?

Patrick Kamba 18:24

Yes, yes. And this is where you, you understand that actually the real story of their support was because they were thinking I would do medicine. So it was also their plan

Caroline 18:38

Very interesting, right? This, like, double-handed- love and support, and yet slightly conditional because they have their own- ...vision, their own desire of what you're going to do with your life. And then here you're following your own passion, but somehow, like, how in this... Okay, but yeah. All right. So I hope maybe let's see how this resolves or maybe doesn't, because your impact that you end up having really, really does so much for not just individual health, but many, many more impacted from, from the things that you do. Okay. So first you go in for transportation related what did you learn from that period of time? Like, once you actually start going and being more involved in the corporations, what are some of the things that stood out to you as interesting things you weren't trained for, or interesting things that you realized, "Ah, here's where I can make my path"?

Patrick Kamba 19:43

So f-first is, uh, people management and interaction with people in general. I discovered that I have really, uh, great listening skills. I like to interact with people, talking to them, hear about their career, discuss about career. That's really my, uh, my passion. That's number one. Second is project management. As an engineer- you know framework, discipline, planning- anticipating- solving issues, managing risk. That is really another thing that I, I like. These are the main two things, and then maybe more generally, I'm curious. I always ask- questions. I want to know more. I want to understand. These are the things I discovered in corporation, and also the fact that you always have somebody who has the answer.

Caroline 20:29

The who, not how, right? Who do you know- ...that could help you? Not having to think that you have to be the one to know how to do all of the things- all by yourself. Yes, yes. This idea of collaboration. And it, I think maybe in some ways, some of these seeds of that were also prevalent in your high school years when you realized it's okay- ......to ask for help.

Patrick Kamba 20:51

Yes.

Caroline 20:52

you had to structure your time and, and effort a little bit- ...differently. Making these frameworks. so then this in- industry then starts to become a natural extension of the things- ...you had already started, but Did you become project management certified- those sorts

Patrick Kamba 21:09

Yes, I did. Wh-when I joined- uh, GSK, so after my, my, my, uh, mission as a consultant in transportation, I went to GSK as a consultant, and I had the opportunity to be trained and be certified in project management. And what, that was really the moment where I, in a way, discovered my passion for project management. I'm passionate about project management. Yes, really. I love it.

Caroline 21:32

That's amazing. Okay, so now you're at GSK, one- a very world-renowned, institution. You get to learn from so many great people, and the systems and the things that they had in place and learning about project management. How did that impact your family's thoughts about the work you were doing?

Patrick Kamba 21:52

I was God on Earth. yes, of course. My father was so proud. Oh, my son is working on vaccine. We can discuss immunology. We have new conversation." He was so proud. And my mother, of course. And now, now Then it was... done Because I was in the pharma, vaccine, medicine industry in general. I was not uh, an MD. They did not care anymore because I was- working on vaccine.

Caroline 22:20

So You had to go beyond the disappointment and allow them to realize later, yes, yes- you are, in fact, the, ......the son they can be proud of because of your- ......greatest impact now with vaccine. Now, what were some of the vaccines that you worked with,

Patrick Kamba 22:37

I work on several. So, um, human papillomavirus, HPV. I worked on some, uh, adjuvants. I worked on some, uh, otitis media, acute otitis media, yes, I've, I've been very busy. And the fact that I worked on so many completely different vaccines reinforced- this pride of my parents, of course

Caroline 22:58

How about your uncle?

Patrick Kamba 22:59

Well, m-my uncle who, uh, let's say coached me and supported me to study engineer, he was very proud that I was, graduated as an engineer like him. that was great. And I had another uncle who also wanted to study engineer, was very happy, whatever the industry, they were the two who were supporting me in my studies- and trying to challenge my parents to ensure- ...I could study and become an engineer. So anything I did as a work, as long as I was happy, as I was an engineer, they were fine.

Caroline 23:30

Got you. So as time went on, the parents and the greater family all realized your, and celebrated you and your success and the work that you were able to do, So then what happened? So y-you were at GSK for quite some time- ......and then- moved to something else. What was that story?

Patrick Kamba 23:51

Yes. So at a certain moment, I had the opportunity to lead a team of project managers, and I became a director at GSK. And that was also God of God for my parents because it was the first time in generation, because don't forget that they come from Congo in the '60s, to put the things into context. Having director as a next generation in a big company like GSK, that was even science fiction for them because, I mean, they are, they were so happy to be able to study, become a nurse, become a doctor, and one of their kids, the next generation, is director. That's, that's a wow. So they were so, so happy and so proud because they felt that next generation had an impact, let's say, in health in general, but in corporation and of course big title.

Caroline 24:42

help everyone understand. When you say- ......Congo in the '60s, there's a whole lot of people, probably myself included, that it's like, "Okay, Congo in the '60s. what But what is, what was it like in the Congo in the '60s? And so then how was this- ......uh, progression of not only your father and mother's career but now your career and the opportunities you had in a different part of the world? explain that a little bit further because I don't know that everyone understands- ......Congo in the '60s.

Patrick Kamba 25:12

So i-in the Con- Congo, named Zaire at that moment, was a Belgian colony. So in the '60s, you had a process of decolonization, meaning that Zaire, Congo, became independent in the middle of the '60s. But my father knew some refugees camp because this decolonization did not happen smoothly and so calmly. That's one. And at the end of the day, my parents when they moved to France, there were not so many Black people over there. They discovered the snow, my parents, yes, but all the rest, racism. There were not so many Black people in the '60s, and if you think about me when I was studying in high school from 12 to 18 in this school, uh, you know, 50 miles far from home, I was the only Black during seven years.

Caroline 26:06

were people kind and accepting, or were they unkind and fearful?

Patrick Kamba 26:13

Generally kind and accepting, but a few not at all. A few. I would say only a few. It's a few percentage, so very limited. But I had, been exposed to this. It was my day-to-day from Monday to Friday, again.

Caroline 26:30

Oh, so now you're proving yourself regardless the day of the week. You just, ...you know, re- just depending on the audience. So- hopefully, and sounds like you found a core group of friends who were welcoming and encouraging and supportive. But yet there were occasionally these ones that doesn't matter what you did- just because who you are or what you look like, they've made some sort of- ......assumption and are gonna- treat you differently and meanly and- uh, ...without seeing the beauty of the diversity- ......of each individual person, regardless where they are, who they are. We all have a unique wonderfulness- ...about us.

Patrick Kamba 27:12

so in the '70s, my father, being an MD, was helping a woman delivering baby. So he, he was doing, uh, gynecology obstetrician, While doing this. But again, he was the only Black surgeon in this hospital at that moment. He was alone in the '70s because my parents were living in a small city in the northeast of France. It was not in Paris. It was not in big cities. It was really, let's say, 20,000 people in this city, so very small. He was the first And in terms of community, he knew two or three doctors. They were in Germany. They studied medicine in Germany. Congolese also. So they were isolated. This is where I would say my parents are coming from, and this is the story I had to live when I was young. It helped to build, let's say, my personality, and the fact that I don't give up easily. I'm very resilient because I have to.

Caroline 28:11

Yeah. Oh, interesting. It's so interesting. Okay. Wow. So you've now had reached up to director, level at GSK, and then you, why did you leave there, and what did you go to do next?

Patrick Kamba 28:26

So I, I left, uh, basically to be close to my, uh, my family, my kids, and stop, you know, commute and go to the office, and also because I was not seeing so many opportunities to keep on growing this company. So I made a, let's say a bet on working in a small biotech 20 minutes far from home instead of, let's say, 50 minutes. Then COVID hit.

Caroline 28:51

I see. Okay. But let's... Before the COVID hits- so you realize that although you're successful, very successful, you also realize that the greater life you wanted to live wasn't just being successful at work, but the children- ...that you had been blessed with, you wanted to have more time to be in- involved integrally closer available for them. And so you chose your- ...holistic satisfaction over some title or over some... Now, that, that is something that I love and aspire to. And, this questioning, can we... Can you take us into the moment of- ...when this questioning started to happen for you? Because this is the thing many people do not talk about. Like, you end up having this successful career. You have this great salary. You have this thing, and it's like so many people would love to be in that position.

Patrick Kamba 29:51

Yes

Caroline 29:51

yet this thinking of, "I'm not sure this is what I truly want and what is the best- for me in this moment." Take us to those times. What were the- what were these thoughts and what were The feelings? Yes, yes. Yeah. Imagine what your life would be like if your career aligned with who you are, what you do best, and actually fueled the life you want. At Next Success, we support all ages and stages through career transitions from students exploring majors or careers to job seekers actively searching or re-imagining their next move to professionals committed to self-awareness and leadership growth. Stay connected and explore what's possible at nextsuccesscareers.com and follow @nextsuccessmethod on LinkedIn, YouTube, Instagram, and Facebook.

Patrick Kamba 30:46

So i- it's about, uh, quality of life in general. Because as you know, I like to cook, but if I'm tired, I'm running every morning- ......I have to bring kids to school, rush and- commute to the office, work, and then have to leave early to be sure I can pick up my kids. Where do you- enjoy cooking with your kids? That's one thing. Even if, of course, you have the title and all of this. So- my, let's say, strategy was to look calmly for an opportunity around my place. Also because my scope of work was a bit shrinking already. No change of title, no change of salary, no problem, but it was shrinking. So it means, hmm, maybe I will stop growing. I will have less opportunities to grow because the company organization is evolving, what was fine. And I said maybe it's just the right moment to do something else. That's why I- decided to go in a way not to lose money or earn less, but something comparable. Plus quality of life, because imagine you drive fifteen minutes- when it's free, or I mean, when there is not so much traffic jam, and twenty minutes when there is a problem. I mean, you wake up, bring kids- just go, you are arrived. And really, it's, it's a luxury. Working less than thirty minutes from your home. It's a luxury. Because at the end, r- driving one hour, one hour and a half morning, evening, multiply even one year, ten years- you lose so much time.

Caroline 32:25

Absolutely. Now, what was your, wife's career?

Patrick Kamba 32:29

at that moment I was already divorced, actually. That's why- ...it was also making things even more complicated. But on the opposite, stepping back and thinking about what future do you want for your kids? Do you want to be- there and have some moments? Because if we step back, my father an MD, my mother a nurse, they were not so much available for me. So it drove me to some considerations. What time- what quality of time do you want to have with your kids? It has influenced me, of course. That's why I was feeling that the week I have my kids, I need more or less to be there, and not only cook with them during the weekend because I will be exhausted. I want to be able to- do things during the week. Improvise I don't know what. And that has been one element, one parameter for my decision.

Caroline 33:19

That's beautiful, that you recognize that this time of their life And you wanted to be able to do all you could- in those weeks that you had them to be more completely available. And yeah, getting nearly three hours back of not commuting- ...but in being able to have that. So the helping your time, your effort, your energy- ......all of those things.

Patrick Kamba 33:40

I was, I was nice. I was smiling. I was less stressed. Really. p- People really underestimate the power of going to work, let's say 20 minutes, 30 minutes or even less. Being close- to the place you are working, it's a, it's a luxury. It's... You don't have the stress of traffic jam. You know you will always arrive on time. You don't rush your kids- in the morning. You know, "Prof, five minutes, we don't care. And kids feel it.

Caroline 34:11

For sure. That is such an, like, yes, this ability to have something close by that- provides enough of a income for your quality- ......of life, and yet not chasing, possibly a little bit higher pay that comes at a, a larger sacrifice of time

Patrick Kamba 34:30

And that's the point.

Caroline 34:32

Mm-hmm.

Patrick Kamba 34:33

put a boundary, a limit in terms of, let's say, sacrifice. I prefer to talk about price to pay. There's a limit, and I, I mean- everybody has a limit, and mine was there because as a young graduate, my target was to be a director one day in a company.

Caroline 34:52

Ja

Patrick Kamba 34:52

I reached this part, I said, "From now, I want also to balance more with a better quality of life." and even if now I'm much beyond this title, things have changed.

Caroline 35:04

So then COVID happens, and then what happens?

Patrick Kamba 35:08

Oh, I was fired in 40 minutes.

Caroline 35:11

What? Okay. Say what?

Patrick Kamba 35:15

You asked me.

Caroline 35:16

So... yeah, yeah So you left GSK- ...this stable thing- ...to move closer to home, uh- ......taking a chance on a startup. It's for, for, a little bit of time, it's like, "Aha, this is great. It's this 15- ...20-minute drive. I'm here with my kids." And then this- what? I was fired

Patrick Kamba 35:34

We had lockdown

Caroline 35:35

us...

Patrick Kamba 35:36

Yes, we, I mean, we had, you know, lockdown, like in a lot of countries- in the world, and so the plant was running slowly, and I was never called back to help because they have other people to manage specific activities. And when I came back on the Monday, I was with HR and the plant manager, and in 40 minutes I was out because they told me that they did not need my competencies.

Caroline 36:02

And so when was this?

Patrick Kamba 36:04

I think it was less than one year later, or one year and a half. I joined this company in September 2019, and I left, yeah, summer '20. I mean, I left-- I've been helped to leave less than one year

Caroline 36:21

That's a bummer. So

Caroline mix 36:22

then

Caroline 36:22

was there even any severance pay or anything of that? Or just like, "Thank you.

Patrick Kamba 36:27

Oh, in Belgium it had, it had six, six weeks.

Caroline 36:31

Okay. Better than nothing. But still, now it's 2020.

Patrick Kamba 36:35

It's a shock

Caroline 36:36

and this probably was never- ......in your thoughts. Like, you could choose to leave somewhere, but you're never was it your thoughts that somebody would say, "You're no longer needed."

Patrick Kamba 36:46

Yes. Not like this.

Caroline 36:49

See, this is the thing. In the moment when these, it's like by choice or by force we have these transitions. In the moment it se- like, uh, but a by force in the moment doesn't seem good- ......in that immediate moment. Later you can look with the wisdom of like, "Oh, my gosh. I'm so glad that happened for me."

Patrick Kamba 37:08

But a few

Caroline 37:09

I'm sure you were like, What?" ...Me?"

Patrick Kamba 37:13

It was a shock. Unexpected. But a few months later I was already feeling it was good because- remember the story, I am the guy who will ask for help when needed. This is what I did. I asked for help, and I had a few people who were really game changer. So I called two or three people. They told me, "Patrick, you should be freelance and start your own business." Of course, deny, afraid, scared, petrified, terrified, and all the things you can imagine. Because I was not sure I could do it, and I don't know what skills do I have at the end, even if I am project manager. And I spent an afternoon talking to a friend that I called the Professor, like Casa de Papel, because he was- a consultant, freelance project manager in IT, and he explained me during one afternoon what are the things to be aware of when you want to start your own business. And then I activated my network. Again, networking. All the seeds I put in the soil during ten years, in one month they gave me back, and they re- they send recommendation for me to Johnson Johnson, who was working on the COVID vaccine, and I started as a freelance. Actually, I started my mission before having done my paperwork to be a freelance.

Caroline 38:35

this is the kicker, everyone. You had built your network very intentionally before you needed it. Just because it was the right thing to do, and part of your care of people and your celebration of the beauty of many, many different people, you had- connected and made a network that was available, and you were helping others in that network. Now comes the time you needed help, and you were able to then go ask these people that you'd already built relationships- ...for years, if not decades. And then they were able to connect you to opportunities. You then started working at J&J- and doing work. ...and was it on the COVID vaccine? that your work was there? Ah. Interesting. Interesting. Okay, and then what happened?

Patrick Kamba 39:30

And then, uh, after one year, my mission was ending, and I heard about opportunities at PPD, my current employer. And again, I talked to some people because I knew that maybe a position was open, and I applied, and I had my interview. It was successful, and I've been selected. Like I'm end- I was ending my mission in August '21. I started at PPD in September.

Caroline 39:57

Oh, wow. See- so it aligned so nicely again- ......from l- utilizing your network when it was most important for you. Okay. And so how did this idea of writing a book come along?

Patrick Kamba 40:17

That's a funny story. It happened, like, 10 years ago. I was discussing with two friends that I wanted to do more speaking engagement, conferences, because I wanted to be a speaker. Both of them told me, "You should write a book." "Come on. A book, not for me. I don't know what I would write. Leave me alone." During the year, they told me, "You should write a book." "No, leave me alone. Come on." Then a third or fourth person who don't know each other told me, "Patrick, you should write a book." Then I paused, because I remember a lesson. When three or four people who don't know each other give you the same feedback, maybe you should listen.

Caroline 41:00

Yes.

Patrick Kamba 41:00

So I listened and I started to write a book. It's called, in English, Quiet Ambition. In French, it's more "The Secret of Ambition" or "The Secret Source of Ambition," I'm trying to translate. But original title, that's the most Frenchiest part, that's me. It was, uh, "Keep Your Ambition for Yourself." We are far- but not so far because when I work my, with my agency, they said, "Yeah, but what do you mean?" could be a kind of double sword or double meaning. I said, Yes. Not keep it for yourself because you are not interested. No. My point was keep it for yourself because you need to protect it, because some people might be jealous and put some obstacles on your way." That's why it became Le Secret de l'Ambition," "The Secret of Ambition" in a way or quiet ambition. So not too much noise. Focus on what you want to do, move forward, like the young Patrick who was deciding to study one week in school and coming back in the weekend. Because by doing this- I'm below the radar. People don't look at me too much, and, "Yeah, yeah, Patrick is studying somewhere." That's it. I don't have the everyday pressure, and then things become visible when? When I'm finished with school, and then I can go to university. Compared to how did it happen last week? What do you do today? Where are you with maths, physics, chemistry? What are you studying? What do you want to do tomorrow? Nobody is asking you this because you are isolated somewhere, and that's the philosophy- of quiet ambition. You share only with the few people that you trust. You're not- running the show. You're not on stage showing that you are the best and et cetera. You move with your aspirations, your targets slowly, quietly, but efficiently.

Caroline 42:56

Yes. I I really like that, and it's a different twist, right? here's the thing, you, you have your goals, you have your, your dreams and all of that, and on one hand you hear, "Well, you need to tell somebody so then it becomes real." And you're saying- Yes and." Yes, tell somebody, but make sure it's a trusted, supportive person who's your champion, not- ...some of these greater naysayers that the vision wasn't given to them, so therefore they're going to be judging and looking for your every mistake- and chastising you for that. You're saying- ...Yes have an ambition. Be a little bit quiet and selective of to who you let in- to knowing your ambition. You definitely have to ask for help. You have to have this supportive network around you, and you also have to realize, this is one of the things coming through in, in your book, you have to realize that every journey is going to have, you know, things that are propelling you forward, and sometimes it's a step back. A forward, back- ...forward, back. And when the back happens, realize that's not just an overall failure, it's something to learn from and to rededicate, recommit yourself to your quiet ambition- ......and keep on moving forward and keep asking and, and, and going. I really, really, liked that, and it's something that I hadn't, I hadn't considered honestly. Right? How to be, you know, being a little bit, uh, selective about who you're telling ...and what you're telling is helpful. Very helpful.

Patrick Kamba 44:32

some people who have reviewed work with me to name the chapters, even name the title of the book. Okay? So even if I can say, Okay, I wrote a book, I published," but there are some people at certain moment they helped me, they reviewed, they proposed, and I listened to a lot of them. And that's why, even if it's Patrick Kamba in a way for this book, there are several people who have contributed, but not because they ask me to contribute, but because I ask them, and that's the difference. You know, when you are on a big project, you may see- people proposing their help just because they want to be associated to your success, and here that's not the case. I had some people who proposed. I said, No thank you." Because the moment they propose to me, I will say, No." It has to come from me. Because I know you enough, if I want your help, I will come to you. There's no need to tell me that you're available to help me. I know.

Caroline 45:33

And yet aligning yourself with the ones that you selected, because sometimes people have a little ulterior motive too. Like, they'll say, "Oh, I want to help you, Patrick," but really they may be helping themself.

Patrick Kamba 45:45

That's the point. That's why I never accept people who propose me to help me.

Caroline 45:49

You want it to be your, your direction. your allowing someone in type of thing. although when people approach you and ask for your help, is it the same discernment?

Patrick Kamba 46:03

Yes, When people ask me-

Caroline 46:05

Yeah

Patrick Kamba 46:06

then I will go and help them. I will not often decide alone to go to them and ask. And that's why some people may tell me, "You are not a seller." I'm not

Caroline 46:18

Okay. Yeah. and yet even without being a seller, you have helped, more than 50, probably- ...closer to 100 people in their own- ...careers. Mentored so, so many. And interestingly, the type of people you have helped with their careers, many of them have been women. Tell a little bit- ......about that.

Patrick Kamba 46:42

That's my, my, my real passion, I would say my ultimate goal. contributing to women being paid at their real value That's very ambitious. This one, it's a big one. Working on it almost every day with three daughters, by the way. But also I'm always part of, let's say, woman leader network- everywhere I have worked for. so GSK, PPD today, and now even Thermo Fisher, that is the bigger entity. That's where I am. So my passion is coming from my mother, of course. Because she decided to become a nurse, she was 40 years old, and my father supported her, she was so happy, and she loved it. And I saw- of course, the difference of having a woman being able to fulfill her dreams. I see this power. So here I'm trying to give back to women.

Caroline 47:36

How old are your daughters now?

Patrick Kamba 47:39

16, 10, and 8.

Caroline 47:41

Oh, nice. Nice. Right in the thick of it. That's amazing. And so, and part of your desire was driven by your mother, and also this desire of you're trying to be that helpful advocate- for others and h- and hoping the same, that your daughters, whatever their opportunity that they'd like to do, whatever their dream that they want to fulfill, that it is indeed possible, and yet providing- ...help where needed for people to kind of make the way, show the space for others. That's so, so beautiful. That is so beautiful. Okay. So now you have, you know, this great career, and you've also have this book, and you had this desire to be doing more speaking. H- how is that evolving? is this your side gig or your side hustle, people say?

Patrick Kamba 48:31

Yes. It's a, it's a side gig, but that is still growing, of course. Uh- last year I was in Miami for a woman leadership, uh, event in, uh, in September, and I made a speech on how to be heard and listened without the noise. It was mainly for- woman leaders. Today it's keep on growing this area, I mean, meaning more speaking engagement. And as I'm a project manager in pharma industry, every time I can, I will attend a conference as a speaker or panelist on project management- in pharma general. So I'm back from London. I was there two weeks ago. I love it. And here I'm available for any speaking engagement on leadership, strategy and execution, the gaps between, the beautiful strategy and corporate goals and the execution in the field. These are topics- I, I like to do, and that is explained on my website, uh, for example. Yeah.

Caroline 49:23

these people who've gotten help regarding their careers, has that been within the f- the companies that you've worked for, or do you help people also, like let's say there was somebody in a pharma-related career, they're looking for that kind of interest and advice, do you also work one-on-one with people with coaching- or h- how is that?

Patrick Kamba 49:42

coaching, mentoring is my passion, I can do anywhere, everywhere. So- I do partially with, uh, with PPD. I did it also with PMI, you know, Project Management Institute. A few years ago- I was part of a mentoring program in Belgium. And I also do it if you connect with me via my website, I can also do, uh, one-to-one. So I can do it everywhere. It's hard for me to say no- actually. That's my challenge.

Caroline 50:07

that's so amazing. Now I'm curious, I forgot to ask you, from... if you could recall back to your very youngest years, maybe even that when you went to high school and all that, what did you think success was then? Like, what did you think it meant to be a successful adult and successful person? And then we're going to then fast-forward- ......to now. But like in, in that time, what did you think it was from that young viewpoint of what it was for success?

Patrick Kamba 50:38

Money and title. Yes. I will not pretend- the opposite. I was 18, 20, roughly. Yes. Title and, and money. but when I evolve and I reach this director milestone-

Caroline 50:55

Yeah

Patrick Kamba 50:55

said, It's over." I was not planning or targeting to be vice president or CEO or whatever, because my objective was director. So- in a way, still humble with my ego thing. Because- target to be a director is still ego, uh, Let's be clear. That was my ego, but not beyond. And I decided there was also a, a flip in my, in my, uh, in my mindset, my head. When I became a director, I said, That's it. I made it. Now I will enjoy and do whatever I want." And that's why now I can mentor and coach anytime. I go to conference and congresses. I'm making jokes, even if I am chairman of a two days congress. People laugh. I make people comfortable, and we are enjoying sharing moments because my main objective is done. It Doesn't mean that I'm not motivated to do anything anymore because as you can see, I wrote a book. I'm executive director now. Until last year, I had more than 300 people reporting to me. I review high valued budget with my company, but still I'm relaxed, I'm smiling. But I also stay grounded and put myself in challenge, like doing podcasts, for example- because I never know what question can be asked. It allows me to stay humble also. That's important.

Caroline 52:24

So how do people find you? How do people work with you?

Patrick Kamba 52:27

So very simple. They can connect to me via LinkedIn. They can find me easily, Patrick Kamba, Or they can visit my website, uh, www.patrickkamba.com.

Caroline 52:39

Mm. Love it. Love it. And now from this vantage point, because you've had a lot of, uh, revelations, um- growth in your own, uh, self and how you manage your life holistically to be y- having this joy and all that, but how would you define, like, authentic success for you in this moment? How do you define this is what it is to be authentically successful?

Patrick Kamba 53:04

Uh, me, is being happy, being free, and when I say being free, is being free to do whatever I want, when I want. Three weeks ago, I was in New York. I wanted to spend five days. I've been five years without going to New York. I had to go back. I decided to go back. In February, I was... I flew to Singapore with my three daughters, and guess what? With the daughter of one of my best friend.

Caroline 53:31

Wow.

Patrick Kamba 53:32

I wanted to do it. And I already announced that two years later we'll go to Hong Kong. I'm not sure the parents are ready mentally, but okay, that's another story.

Caroline 53:41

Yeah. Oh, that's beautiful. Okay, so doing what you want, with who you want, when you want, having that flexibility- ...uh, and taking the opportunities as they come.

Patrick Kamba 53:51

Yes, and also being able to enjoy basic things, like this weekend I cooked with my kids, and we did, uh, noodle sauté, noodles, different recipes. We were all doing our own things. That is also life. Spending time with your kids- improvise. "Okay, let's go and cook." Okay, that's it. Because at the end of the day, if you are successful but you have nobody to share with, what's the purpose?

Caroline 54:20

So, so beautiful. Thank you, Patrick, so much for telling more about your story for this journey. I know that the listeners are going to absolutely love this one and have so much value. So thank you so much for being on Your Next Success.

Patrick Kamba 54:37

Thank you, Caroline. It was really a pleasure. Thank you.

Speaker 54:38

Thanks for listening to Your Next Success with Dr. Caroline Sangal. Remember, authentic success is yours to define and includes aligning your career to support the life you want.