Jen Heemstra 0:03

I'm done. I'm done being the person that I think certain people want me to be, or that I think this academic system, or that science thinks that I should

Caroline 0:12

Yes

Jen Heemstra 0:12

be. And forget it, right? If even

Caroline 0:16

Yep

Jen Heemstra 0:16

that's not good enough, then I'm just gonna be the person that I want to be. I'm gonna show up as the person that I want to show up as. Like, I want feedback, but I'm not going to let that control who I am.

Michele Novack 0:27

This is the Your Next Success podcast, and I am your host, Dr. Caroline Sangal. you will hear stories from people who have navigated big career transitions themselves. So you can create a life, first career and become your own version of authentic success, one that is aligned, meaningful, and truly yours.

0:51

Have you ever achieved what you thought was success, but then been unfulfilled when you reached your destination? Maybe you've reached a point where you start questioning what you're driving toward and why you should even keep going, or you start questioning what even moves you forward. My guest today reached that point at what she thought was the height of her career. Dr. Jen Heemstra is the Charles Allen Thomas professor and chair in the Department of Chemistry at Washington University in St. Louis, She leads a lab that works with nucleic acids and proteins. You may remember from high school biology that nucleic acids are things like DNA and RNA. She's also the author of Labwork to Leadership. When she started her academic research, she thought she had signed up for a science job. What she actually got was a leadership job that she hadn't been trained for yet, and for years, she built her career by fitting in, doing what the people around her did, until she saw how much of herself she had set aside to do it. then a day she once recalled as the worst of her life is when she decided to stop being who everyone else expected and start showing up as herself. What she found on the other side reshaped how she leads and who she lets herself be, leading with kindness and empathy and working toward a healthier culture for the people who come after her this is part one of a two-part conversation with Dr. Jen Heemstra

Caroline 2:26

Jen Heemstra, welcome to Your Next Success. I am so ecstatic to be talking with you today.

Jen Heemstra 2:33

Thanks for having me. I'm really excited to talk with you.

Caroline 2:36

Okay, so we're gonna get to all of the amazing things that you do. You are a renowned professor who's been at multiple universities, and you've written this amazing book, which happened to be the thing that drew me to you. I had somebody in my universe read your book. She knew of me, she knew of my podcast, and she contacted me with a, "Do you take guest requests? Because I really think you need to have Jen Heemstra on your podcast." And I was like, "Awesome." Um, it was actually kind of funny. She said, "I have an idea for you for somebody to have as a guest." And so she mentioned you, and I said, "Awesome." And she's like, "And I would like you to be a guest on someone's podcast as well." And I'm like, "Okay, who do you have in mind?" And she said, "Mel Robbins." Right? And so I'm like,

Jen Heemstra 3:25

That's awesome.

Caroline 3:26

"I would love that in time. I'm not sure that that's in the near future, but I definitely would love it as a target." But I love that she was just so, she was somebody who was finishing up her PhD, trying to get her first real job, found such value in her book, and just the beauty and the innocence of connecting these worlds and like, why isn't it possible? Of course. So loved it.

Jen Heemstra 3:53

That's so good because we all need reminders of that sometimes, right? You know, it's good to know what's practical and what's likely to be possible, but sometimes we talk ourselves out of things too easily because we just think, "Oh, well, you know, that could never happen." And know I need those people in my life who are like, "Yeah, but like, what if? Like, what,

Caroline 4:15

Yeah

Jen Heemstra 4:16

cost you to try that?" And, yeah, I always appreciate that, the people who kind of encourage you to dream a little bigger than,

Caroline 4:23

Yeah

Jen Heemstra 4:24

you know, or encourage me to dream a little bigger than I otherwise would have

Caroline 4:27

So let's start way back at the beginning. And we're talking, like, where were you born? Like, what was life like for the very youngest little Jenn?

Jen Heemstra 4:38

Yeah. I'm in my life now reflecting a lot on how those years and largely the, the bad things that happened in my childhood, um, shape who I am, and actually really set me on a path to leadership in really unexpected sorts of ways. But, um, yeah, I was born in Southern California and grew up there, and had a really interesting home life, I would say is a good way to put it. there were some things that were incredibly, incredibly challenging. at the same time, um, so I, I had... I don't, haven't actually talked about this very much, um, while both of my parents were alive, but, um, they're both, uh, now passed. But I grew up in a house with a parent, um, who had some pretty major mental health issues, that, um, let's just say, made it, uh, not a safe place to be often, and really- taught me a lot about who I wanted to be and who I didn't wanna be as a kid. And so was a really difficult childhood in a lot of ways, but then in a lot of ways too, my parents made a bunch of great sacrifices that really benefited, me and my brother. You know, like, at times when, you know, they didn't know if they could afford, you know, food for dinner, they still out of their way to rent a place that was in a really good school district so that when, I hit a point that it was like, "Okay, it's not necessarily safe for me to go home after school, and I need somewhere else to go," the thing that I, like, fell into was, like, Science Olympiad, and so I look back and think about all of the things that could have happened to someone who was growing up in the same way that I was and with all of the same things around me, I was i- incredibly, incredibly fortunate for how it worked out. I also tell people now, I'm like, "You know, when people grow up in, abusive situations, you know, they often seek out something that they can control." You know, people engage in self-harm, or they abuse alcohol or drugs or whatever. And like, for whatever reason, the way I grew up, um, whether it was something my parents did or where we were or who my friends were, the thing that I reached to to control was, like, academic achievement.

Caroline 7:10

Yes.

Jen Heemstra 7:10

achievement was my drug.

Caroline 7:12

Yes

Jen Heemstra 7:13

Um, and that, that's a really fortunate thing to have, right? That it, it wasn't necessarily always healthy, but of all the things that I could have gotten into, it kind of set me up well for my future

Caroline 7:29

I can resonate with that, so, so much on several different levels. I think this is also part of maybe from the perspe- I'm about to have a big milestone birthday by the time this airs. That will have already happened. But like I have so much more empathy, for my own growing up situation now from this vantage point and seeing my kids they're about to be 17 and 20. And even reflecting back on their childhoods, and I didn't realize that I was having, mental health struggles or challenges, and I didn't realize that I was in a household that 'Cause it was never talked about, right? But the academic achievement, like that was the safe thing. Or being involved in lots of after-school activities. Like that was just it was an outlet. It was something to do. And then when you catch that like recognition for, oh, all A's or this or that or this leadership position like I don't know, that did become my drug of choice as well, was just that constant thriving for what I thought was success at that moment or like external validation because somehow I wasn't able to give that to myself.

Jen Heemstra 8:36

I'm gonna guess that we're probably both coming near the same milestone birthday, and something I've been talking to my coach about but then also sharing with friends about is like I'm in this moment of my life where for the first time really in, almost four decades, I actually feel like I'm in a, good, safe place where I can actually breathe for like the first time. And I'm like, "Okay, but like what do you do when you wake up one day in your late 40s and realize that so much of your success has all just come out of a trauma response?" And you're like, "Oh my goodness, like how do I motivate myself now? How do I even, think about what drives me when the answer isn't adrenaline anymore?"

Caroline 9:19

Yeah

Jen Heemstra 9:19

Because I just grew up like gamifying it. It was like, "Okay, it's like a fun like adventure race of like where am I gonna sleep tonight?" But then that also, at a very young age taught me skills I look around and say, "Wow, that is really, really useful." Like I learned how to navigate complicated systems healthcare, social service, all these different things, and I learned how to advocate for myself. And I wouldn't wish my childhood on anyone, but I don't know that I would've gained those skills otherwise.

Caroline 9:51

Yeah

Jen Heemstra 9:51

I navigate complicated systems like how NIH funding works, and how, you know, tenure works, and how the academy works. And you have to advocate for yourself a lot 'cause you're like a small business owner, and I just look at that now and think, "Wow, really, really impacted me a lot," but so much of it came out of really difficult circumstances

Caroline 10:12

You know, It was 2020, pre-2020, so we're talking like early March or maybe it was late February. I had been on this like, but wait, there's more. There's more than just straight science. And I never took like a psychology class in college or any of it because I was like, w- like I think I had a block. I was a head attached to a body with a lot of knowledge. But like, when I would hear people like occasionally talk about like integration, I'm like, "Well, oh my gosh, it just made me wanna like vomit."

Jen Heemstra 10:40

you talking about? Yeah

Caroline 10:41

I didn't know the feelings. I thought that the pictures with all the different faces and the emotions, like, wow, that was interesting artwork on a couple people's, cubicle walls. But it was also really foreign to me. And then I start entering into some of this uncovering, discovering, phase, and it was kind of freeing and terrifying in the same moment, right? And I had heard Oprah I went to this conference on something about living your best life, and it's like, well, hell yes, I want this. And I had just come off of, I had ended up having some health challenges that I didn't realize were to my quest for success. So I had high blood pressure with one, then two, then three medicines. Next thing you know, I had an irregular heart rate where my heart would go to 210 and I'm just sitting on the couch

Jen Heemstra 11:23

good.

Caroline 11:23

not good.

Jen Heemstra 11:24

good."

Caroline 11:24

It's like it, it sounded like Lamaze breathing. There was no baby. It was not good. Okay. So I was like, "Yes, of course I wanna live my best life." And I heard Oprah talking about, and I don't know if you've ever heard her talking about her past story,

Jen Heemstra 11:37

yeah

Caroline 11:38

And then her mom was passing away and some people were like, you know, you really should go see her." And she had all this anger and resentment. She didn't wanna go see her because of all the pain and all the things that she had caused. And then she got to a point where, "Yeah, okay. I'm gonna go and I'm gonna tell her what's up," right? And then as she goes through that and she gets to her deathbed, she had this whole change of demeanor and understanding in that moment where she realized she would never have become who she is had she not gone through all of those experiences. And even at my fame-- same time hearing all of this, I'm like, "Well, that's messed up," you know? But also it took a while for that to kinda sink in and be like, you know what? Yeah. Yeah. There, there were some days, and regardless whether it was childhood or people not believing in me or, or certain situations or work or just a variety of stuff. And now from this vantage point, I really can look back and be like, "Yeah, that really did happen for me." But I thought it was happening to me, and I'm like, "Really? I got... Well, I guess I need another challenge, you know, another character-building experience. Okay, let me get my character then." But,

Jen Heemstra 12:59

Yeah.

Caroline 13:00

but yeah

Jen Heemstra 13:00

I feel so much of that. I mean, just jumping to my mid-career and really the huge inflection point I had there was, and you know this if you've read the book, so you know that it was getting, this less than favorable tenure vote when I was coming up for tenure, which you always have to, like, stop and say, some of your audience might not know this, that it's not... You know, getting a tenure vote, it's not like winning a national election where, like, 51% gets it done.

Caroline 13:25

Yeah

Jen Heemstra 13:25

like taking a class where 50% is an F, and you've failed, and you're out. You know, you really need, like, 70% or 80% to succeed. that vote was such a horrible, horrible day. I mean, I felt like I had let down all the people I care about the most in my life, and it was w- you know, arguably the worst day of my life, and I've had some really, really, really bad days. But the fact that it wasn't just things happening to me, it was, like I felt like I had caused this bad situation, that I had somehow failed, and I later realized that that probably wasn't the case. But that was such a change for me because it was, had been trying to fit in. You know, the way I had made it in my career up till then was to fit in and go along and

Caroline 14:16

Yeah

Jen Heemstra 14:17

around me were doing, and I felt like I had sacrificed... I realized, it was this huge wake-up call of, like, sacrificed so much of the person that I actually want to be, things like kindness and empathy. I had lost that trying so hard to fit in. And on that day, the, um, dual of bifurcation of half of my colleagues saying, "No, no, you, we think you don't deserve this job anymore," and then my research group showing up with such kindness, and empathy, and loyalty, and like, "All right, we're in it together. We're gonna get through this together," it just was this amazing wake-up call of like, wow, I, I thought I had been playing those people's rules,

Caroline 15:06

Yeah

Jen Heemstra 15:06

like lot of good that did me. And so that's gone,

Caroline 15:09

Yeah

Jen Heemstra 15:10

I'm done. I'm done being the person that I think certain people want me to be, or that I think this academic system, or that science thinks that I should

Caroline 15:19

Yes

Jen Heemstra 15:19

be. And forget it, right? If even

Caroline 15:23

Yep

Jen Heemstra 15:23

that's not good enough, then I'm just gonna be the person that I want to be. I'm gonna show up as the person that I want to show up as, Like, I want feedback, but I'm not going to let that control who I am

Caroline 15:37

Yes. Y- y- yeah, we resonate a lot on a lot of different things. So I didn't have a tenure vote,

Jen Heemstra 15:43

Yes.

Caroline 15:43

But there were some separate things and times in my own life, and I do wanna get back and catch everybody up on the story even before that, tenure vote. But I remember, So I had had a fellowship that only one person in all of North America got, and then I got my job, doing R&D, making, structural adhesives for cars and doing fatigue and fracture mechanics. Like, nobody would think that, meeting me today. Alas, it was true. I had gotten laid off. That was a hit to the ego. I stayed home as a mom for a few years. I went back as an executive recruiter for the chemical industry, and I'm like, "Well, this is it." Like, I can actually help people. And I kept seeing this pattern of people externally successful, internally not fulfilled. And then after my own health challenges and a real wake-up sit-down that my husband, had with me around our 20th wedding anniversary, I chose myself, right? I had to, I had to leave that situation to become who I wanted to be and who I'd kinda dreamed of being. And then I had this moment where there was like, SciX conference, okay? And one of my friends who had been, someone who would review Army research grants, that was her job. She left her job around the same time that I left mine. She started a company called Wise Investigator. If there are any PIs out there who are newly to the thing and not sure how it works with the whole grant-writing system, there is indeed a company and a really dedicated, amazing person, Dr. Julia Barzyk, who owns Wise Investigator. She can absolutely help you. Well, Julia meets this person through networking who is coordinating the SciX conference that was happening in Raleigh, just 20 minutes down the road, and she's like, "Well, I don't know if you know, but if you're wanting to have career-related talks, you know, Dr. Caroline Sangal has her own company now." And again, this was somebody, speaking my name in a room that I wasn't even in for opportunities I didn't even know existed. And they said yes, and I had, next thing you know, the opportunity to give four short career-related talks in the middle of their expo floor. And I did it, and I remember preparing for those talks, and of course I'd prepared for scientific talks before. And I thought, "You know what? What if? What if I don't show up as Dr. Caroline Sangal, who's gonna talk about this scientific thing about careers and just really boring, and believe me 'cause I'm telling you the end."

Jen Heemstra 18:01

yeah.

Caroline 18:01

I'm like, "What-"

Jen Heemstra 18:02

if I be the person I wanna

Caroline 18:03

What if I just show up like the lovable, energetic, hot mess that really means well, that wants to do good? What if I just show up as that person? And I got sparkly loafers 'cause I was like, "I gotta have a little personality, but still, you know, it's kinda for me." And I showed up as myself, fully myself, and that led to more opportunities because of the people who were in the audience, and they saw me as me. They didn't know me as anything, but they said, "Yes, I want more." And I was like, "Well, why did I hide all those years?" You know? So I'm glad...

Jen Heemstra 18:42

good.

Caroline 18:43

Yeah

Jen Heemstra 18:43

I think authenticity tends to resonate with people, but then of course there's always going to be some people who don't like it. There's a particular conference in my field, that I went to once and then As I started doing well in my field, I kind of was like, "Huh, it's really odd they've never invited me to speak at this conference. It's, like, right in my field." And then one of my friends was on the organizing committee and said something like, "Oh yeah, I keep suggesting your name, but there's certain people who have a lot of control over that conference," and they're like, "Oh, I do not like how she gives a talk." And I was like, "Oh, what? Because I'm, like, not totally boring? Like, I actually, like, I might get excited about something, or

Caroline 19:23

Yeah

Jen Heemstra 19:24

even, like, jump up and down a little bit, or I might tell a joke," you know, because I actually try to engage an audience.

Caroline 19:31

Yep

Jen Heemstra 19:32

But to some people that's just, you know, what I see as engaging they see as unprofessional. And I'm just like, you know what? Y'all are totally entitled to your opinion. I'm gonna change that in my domain of control wherever I can, but if it's not something I can do anything about, I'm like, "That's fine. Have your conference. I'll never go.

Caroline 19:52

Yeah. Yeah

Jen Heemstra 19:53

I don't, I don't need that. It makes me frustrated and it makes me angry, especially for people are Or you know, this happened to me, this was early in my career, and I was like, "Okay, well, whatever," it's frustrating if early career folks continue to experience that because it can have a real cost for their careers. But at the same time, it's just, you know, I kinda made a decision of, well, if I can't be myself, then, you know,

Caroline 20:20

Yeah, at

Jen Heemstra 20:20

And that was what my tenure vote really sealed the deal on, was like, well, look, if I can't show up as myself, then I, I don't wanna be here. I will go find somewhere else to be and something else to do

Caroline 20:34

And for me, I kept that pretending, thinking I had to fit in and thinking I needed to do that, and I didn't realize, but all of those health-related challenges were directly because I was suppressing who I was to try to fit into a mold of what I thought I had to be. And yeah, it doesn't, it doesn't have to be that way, everyone. So if you're feeling some sort of internal tension or turmoil, it does not have to stay. This is data. It's information. So I also had to kinda take that into account of, what is this experience telling me? When I am exhausted at the end of the day, what is that telling me? When I'm not able to show up fully, joyfully for the beautiful lives in my own household,

Jen Heemstra 21:23

Yeah

Caroline 21:24

Is that what I want to carry forward? Is it? And if not, then how can I strategically start to plan that out, do that out? And now of course, I have the whole Next Success Method with very scientifically validated, data-driven assessments to help somebody understand, okay, who am I? What is it like to be me? What is it like to not be me? What is it like to communicate with me? What is the mental fitness and resilience in my mind? And most importantly, what's the life I'd love to live, and how can my career fuel that life instead of detract from it?

Jen Heemstra 21:56

I love that, and I actually have a question for you. It's something I think I'm gonna jump to, like, a little bit, somewhere between where we started with my story and how I ended up as this, you know, tenure track faculty member, facing down this negative tenure vote, and I'm really curious, it- it's a topic I often talk to students about or early career researchers. I'm curious what you think about it as a coach, it's that, you know, the, the easy choices to be yourself is when the people expecting you to be different aren't people that you care about, right? Sometimes those can be easier ones, what about when the expectation to be a certain way that's not authentically aligned with who you are, are coming from presumably the most important people in your life, especially family? And so a little bit of my story is I've talked about how I grew up and later in life, I always had a good relationship with my dad. He passed away when I was in grad school. later in life, kind of made peace with my mom, and always was a détente where there were a lot of things we just didn't talk about, but we could at least kind of coexist. I could go visit her. I could be with her as she, battled with cancer and, near the end of her life. but I grew up in that way where I never... I felt like my family was mostly chosen family. I didn't feel like I had necessarily a family that I knew would have my back.

Caroline 23:26

Yeah

Jen Heemstra 23:26

I grew up in a way where I was like, "I can't ever plan on having to come back home." Like, if I can't pay my rent, I might be, sleeping in my car sort of thing

Caroline 23:34

Mm-hmm.

Jen Heemstra 23:34

Couch surfing with a friend or whatever. And so when I met my spouse and he had this absolutely amazing family, it was like the family I always wanted, and they were so loving and wonderful but both of our families, there was kind of this expectation, probably more so from my family than even his, but expectation they viewed role as, you know, a very domestic one

Caroline 24:03

Mm-hmm.

Jen Heemstra 24:03

of, you know, kind of the cooking and having babies and staying home and raising those kids. In our church that we went to, it was very much like you will not get a job. Like, you cannot work outside the home.

Caroline 24:16

Hmm

Jen Heemstra 24:16

In our families, that wasn't, necessarily said, but there was this expectation around a certain lifestyle that I would lead once we got married, and I always wanted kids, and I have so much respect for women who are wonderful, chefs or who decorate their home beautifully or who decide to stay home and raise their kids. But those things were not at all genuine to me. Like, I,

Caroline 24:45

Yep

Jen Heemstra 24:46

joke, but also seriously, like, the most off-brand, like, do you even know me I ever got was, like, a subscription to Good Housekeeping magazine or something, right? And I tried so hard. I, like, read every page, and I

Caroline 24:58

Oh, I know

Jen Heemstra 24:58

I'm gonna go to, the HomeGoods, and I'm gonna get these decorations, and I'm gonna make the recipes, and I'm gonna do this, and I'm gonna do that." And I went to grad school thinking, "Okay, well, now that I'm married, you know, the only thing that comes after this is I will have babies and stay home and never have a job." And I was trying so hard. You know, I was trying to be, like, an overachiever

Caroline 25:19

Yeah

Jen Heemstra 25:20

this, of this culture, and I was so freaking miserable.

Caroline 25:25

Hmm

Jen Heemstra 25:26

In some ways, in a really weird way, it actually made my PhD maybe better because I could just go and have fun, and there were no expectations. Like, it was like, well, it doesn't matter 'cause there's no job at the end of this. I don't even have to worry about getting a job. But then it was also super depressing because I knew what I, really, really, really, really wanted, and I was like, "Yeah, but that's... I shouldn't even think about it because it is so unattainable." Like, being a faculty member, being in the job I'm in now was what I wanted, but I was like, it might as well be, like, you know, I might as well say I wanna be an astronaut and fly to Mars, right?

Caroline 25:58

Bye

Jen Heemstra 26:00

and that unattainable. Um- And the only thing that broke me out of that was then when I tried to go about doing that, we realized that maybe we never could, I never could get pregnant and have kids. and then it finally, finally, finally, like this miracle happened, I got pregnant, and then I had a pregnancy loss in this incredibly, like gut-wrenching, like on vacation with my in-laws. Literally within 12 hours of us telling them that they were about to have their first grandkid, I wake up like in, at 3:00 in the morning in some, little cabin in, you know, the rural Illinois, know, having a miscarriage. And like, it was just so heart-wrenching, and then like we couldn't get pregnant again. Like just... And it broke me. like it... But it took that level of just gut-wrenching pain of, you know, and just complete upending of what I thought my life was going to be

Caroline 27:02

Yeah

Jen Heemstra 27:02

in order to make me finally say, "You know what? Maybe I need to pursue what I want to do in my career and be authentic to myself, rather than trying to fit into this mold of, of family expectations." And, you know, and again, I think like our families, our families are wonderful. But there was... And, and they've actually evolved a lot, too. I think like my mom was very supportive of my career in the end. it took time, but she eventually was incredibly, incredibly supportive. I, I felt that pressure from places even beyond family, you know, other communities we were part of, and I

Caroline 27:42

Yes

Jen Heemstra 27:44

desperate to fit in and, so desperate to, to meet expectations because I finally had this family. and so, yeah. So what do you tell people when

Caroline 27:56

Yeah

Jen Heemstra 27:56

when they're like, "This is the authentic path for me, but my family wants me to do this instead"?

Caroline 28:02

Firstly, thank you for sharing all of that, because I think this is also something that we don't talk enough about. Regardless of which gender, right? People join other people, and you end up having families, and you have new families that you didn't originally grow up with, and then there's all these other expectations. And then as you're building a life with somebody, how you wanna be, and are you gonna have children or able to have children and bringing them into the world, and how does that change things and all of those things. And it's absolutely 100% normal, and that's why a lot of times I try to help people understand now because I didn't know this, right? I had to go through all the mess to help it be my message. I had to realize that a lot of these things that I had gone through were so that I could actually understand because I don't know, Jenn. Like, of course, my husband has a few different siblings. I have a sibling, and I mean, there was a time, and this is absolutely horrible to say, and I'm gonna just go ahead and say it 'cause it's part of who I am. But there was a time when everybody was starting to have kids, and then it's like, "Well, do you wanna hold your niece or nephew?" And I literally said something like... And of course, I wanted to have kids, too, because that was gonna be part of the, you know, the white picket fence and the da-da-da-da-da, and we're gonna have a pet, and we're gonna have two cars, and we're gonna have a nice house. And like, that was just kinda like this childhood dream. I wanted my own children. But then holding my nieces or nephews prior to having them, I'd be like, "Well, I mean, I guess if everybody else has already had their turn and it's my turn, I'll, I'll give it a go." You know, but like, not in f-

Jen Heemstra 29:29

wanting that.

Caroline 29:30

And I'm like, and I also didn't, know how to hold the baby. I didn't, like, what do you do? And like, it just was this whole thing and, and

Jen Heemstra 29:36

a pretty big life decision to make

Caroline 29:37

And then when I had my own children, though, there somehow was this emotional tether, but also I had this, like, if my baby was crying, therefore I'm a horrible mom because my baby's crying, and all of these, and now there's all these extra... And, and I never wanted to be a stay-at-home mom. I would look at them while I was going out on lunches with other people from work, and I'm like, "They have no idea what it's really like. Good for them with their matching outfits and this and that and the other," and, and yeah, their really nice clean car. And they have kids, too, and like you can just tell as they're getting out, you're like, "Wow," but they have no idea what it's really like. Well, then, when I was a stay-at-home mom, I was like, "Wow, this is insanely hard and important and cool, and I didn't ask for it. Thank you for giving me the experience so that I can have a greater empathy of understanding." Okay, and there's different ages and stages that we naturally start to question our life and our careers, and I didn't know that. And so the first ones are like 15 to 18, and then 22 to 26, and then every seven to 10 years after that. Imagine what your life would be like if your career aligned with who you are, what you do best, and actually fueled the life you want. At Next Success, we support all ages and stages through career transitions from students exploring majors or careers to professionals committed to self-awareness and leadership growth. Stay connected and explore what's possible at nextsuccesscareers.com and follow @nextsuccessmethod on LinkedIn, YouTube, Instagram, and Facebook. By choice or by force you add something new to your life or somebody that you care about or you had a close, tie dies, right? Or is very sick. Like there's all these times that we start to reevaluate our life. And it's so hard for anyone else, even if it's our spouse or our parent or our sibling or our child, to understand the vision that we have of what's possible or what could be, because it wasn't given to them. And so they have their own idea or their understanding albeit well-intentioned from where they are in their standpoint of what they think is good for us or how they think it's supposed to go or this or that. But the family you come from and the family you have now is an essential part of deciding and discovering what you want for your vision of your life. Like so many people, I'll say your career is like an iceberg. So many people are focused on the title, the salary, the location. As long as you have that, the title, the salary, the location, you are good.

Jen Heemstra 32:18

No.

Caroline 32:18

But the reality is underneath the iceberg, that goes down seven, eight or nine layers, and that's where I've developed, 'cause that question of why... i'm successful. Why don't I feel fulfilled?

Jen Heemstra 32:29

I feel like it? Yeah

Caroline 32:30

How many people, they would die to have this title. They'd die to have this salary. They would and I'm just, like, taking it all for granted, like it's not good enough for me. What is that? And that's where I realized, yeah, there is this model, this whole person model, which takes into account your career development stage, your abilities, your skills, your personal style, your interests, your family that you come from or you have now, your goals and your values. All of those things are you know, so important for deciding what is the vision you want. Because living into the vision somebody else had or even the vision that I had, younger me, I had this kind of conflict of thinking like, "Well, how is it?" You know, and, and, my grandfather passed away, and he had worked at like a steel mill kind of a company. He only had gone to school to the third grade. He worked at a company for his whole entire career. That was part of that generation. And after decades of working for them, he passed away, but nobody from the company showed up for his funeral

Jen Heemstra 33:28

Hmm.

Caroline 33:29

But they sent a little flower arrangement, right? And I remember be- and this was, I was in grad school, but I remember going to that and kind of having a little bit of a perspective. Like, he had gotten a watch from them and he was so proud of that watch. And then he passes away, and there's just this flowers, but no one showed up. And I remember thinking like, oh, all that time you gave. All that time. Now granted, it helped, you know, his kids all ended up going to college, having degrees, wonderful lives for the sacrifices that he made. But something hit me a little bit different there of like, wait a minute. We're here. Where are they? All of those people that you worked with and through and helped or the company. Thank you for the flowers, but what- something's missing, and what do I want? As I have a family, do I wanna be with them or not with them? And even though I said I wanted to be with them, or I wanted to be integrally involved in their lives, I had been making choices that weren't aligned with my deeper knowing, and that caused the stress and the frustration. So what do I tell people when they're starting to realize that they're operating outside of their current vision or their revised vision? Number one, congratulations. Great job on noticing that. And now how would you like that to fit in,

Jen Heemstra 35:03

Hmm

Caroline 35:04

How would you like that to fit into the life that you're building? It does not have to stay that way. But let's dream about what would it be like? How would you like to show up? How can we work towards that? And sometimes people are like, "Well, I do still need this salary and benefits." I'm like, "Okay, And how can we make it more aligned with what you want? How can you start exploring other possibilities while still keeping that?" Versus, or is there a newfound thing of here's why you're doing it, or here's a timeline that makes it palatable

Jen Heemstra 35:34

Often it's not the, what that needs to change, it's more the why, right?

Caroline 35:42

And it can be the how.

Jen Heemstra 35:43

s- what?

Caroline 35:44

The same experience, and, and we see this in science, we see this in human relationships, we see this in families. The same experiment happens. Multiple people observe it, and they all have a different and unique perspective of what actually happened, and how that then... We c- you know, and this is the beautiful thing about sci- It's like, what is failure? Failure is the opportunity to try again, begin again more intelligently. Let's go. Hook me up to failure so I can get closer to

Jen Heemstra 36:18

ha.

Caroline 36:18

Like, let me fail forward, let me fail often. I mean, rubber, that's what I studied in grad school. It was a mistake. It was a mis- it was an, it was an accident, like, that just happened to happen, and somebody was observant about it. And how many things are that? Opportunities exist every single day. And we have the opportunity to make it into something greater, if that's aligned or not, right? Like, I don't wanna talk at your conference then anyway. You don't want me, you don't see how I'm awesome, peace. Enjoy, you know? Okay, let's take it back. Eighth grade, something happened. This eighth grade to ninth grade. Because I think this is important, too, and speaks to your resilience, and it speaks to your you're not gonna tell me who I am or what I'm gonna do. But tell, what happened then?

Jen Heemstra 37:04

Oh, yeah. So, well, it taught me a really valuable lesson, and that, you know, yes, there was some resilience or kind of stubbornness, but I think there was even more to it than that. So, as I was going from eighth grade to ninth grade, you know, you had to show up to register for classes, and so you had to wait in line. I could actually take you to the place in the building at my high school where we were waiting in line to talk to the guidance counselor, and the guidance counselor sat there with a little box of three by five index cards, you know, with one for each student, and when you got up there, you know, they'd, they'd rifle through and pull out your index card and tell you what classes you had the option of taking during ninth grade, your first year of high school. as I'm standing in line, you know, a few of my friends made it to the front of the line, and they're circling back, and they're like, "Oh, yeah, I'm gonna take a ninth grade biology class." And, I was like, "Okay, cool. I guess I'll see you in that," right? 'Cause I was really good at math. I really, really enjoyed math. Science was okay, but I thought, like, but I, I was like, "Okay, I'm an academic, like, I'm an achiever. I'm, I'm doing well in science. I'm sure certainly I'll, I'll be in the science class." But you had to have permission to take the science class. You had to be deemed, like, good enough at science to take the science class and it had really profound implications for the trajectory of your high school career, because if you were allowed to take ninth grade biology, then you could go on and do chemistry, physics, and actually do some AP classes, AP science classes in your senior year. But if you weren't allowed to take ninth grade biology, then you were on this, like, non-science intensive track where it's like, okay, well, in 10th, 11th, and 12th grade you'll kinda get the basics, but, like, you're not gonna go be a scientist or anything, so we'll just put you in these other classes. It was actually a really, really important, sort of decision, which the fact that they were making decisions like that based on what your eighth grade science teacher said about you is pretty abysmal. So I get to the front of the line, and the guidance counselor pulls out my little card, and she goes, "Well, you haven't been approved to take ninth grade biology, so what else do you wanna take instead?" And I was like, "Wait, what? Like, I, I really wanna take biology." And she said, "Well, no, your eighth grade science teacher," something like, "Your eighth grade science teacher said that you are not skilled at science, and so you are not allowed to take ninth grade biology. Here's a list of other classes you can take instead." I ended up taking typing, which was not where I wanted to be, but was shockingly useful in my job now where I stand at my computer and, you know, type emails and things all day. But, I was like, "Okay, well, I guess I'm bad at science." But then the really fortuitous thing is that my friends, were like, "Okay, but, like, we're doing Science Olympiad, and you should do Science Olympiad." And I was like, "No, no, I'm bad at science." And they were like, "But the teacher is super nice, and you can just come hang out. You don't even have to do it." And I was like, "Okay, well," you know, I need somewhere to go after school, you know? You kinda had to, like, you know, after school stay out and, and do stuff, and then you could kinda cruise in right before dinner, um, you know, grab some food, like assess the situation, figure out, like, can I go to my room and do homework or do I need to, like, you know, bail again and, and go find somewhere else to be? And so I needed to fill that, like, after school until dinner, and so they were like, "Oh, she's just super cool. You, you should just come on by." So I was like, "Okay, fine, fine. You know, th- whatever. It sounds good." So I walked in and, the teacher, Dr. Marsha Sprang, amazing person, who actually ended up, like, literally saving my life later in high school, she's like, "Welcome to Science Olympiad." I'm like, "Oh, I'm bad at science, I'm not in ninth grade biology. I didn't get approved for it. I'm bad at science. I don't belong here." And she was like, "Look, you know, it's fine. Anyone can do science." I was like, "Yeah, but I'm not in biology. I can't... You know, my friends are doing these events like genetics and whatever, and I can't do that." And she was like, "Okay, look, have..." There's a competition, I forget what it was called, but it was all about geology and rocks. And she was like, "And nobody takes geology, so you're not behind at all, and you can just go do that." And, I would sit there. There was a big box, and it had all these egg cartons in it, and in each egg carton, you'd open it up, and there were 12 different rocks. And each one had a little piece of paper under it where it said what it was. And so I would sit there, and there were, like, 200 rocks, and I think by the end of the first week, had memorized all of them.

Caroline 41:20

Oh

Jen Heemstra 41:20

of, like, take them all out and quiz myself on them and put them all back and know what all of them were. And then at some point she was like, "Okay, wait, so tell me again why you're not in biology" And I was like, "Remember I was told I was bad at science?" And she was like, "Ugh," you know, rolled her eyes in the way that is so gratifying when

Caroline 41:36

Yeah

Jen Heemstra 41:36

that for you, and was like, "We're gonna fix this," and, eventually came up with a plan for, like, "Okay, here's the deal. You're gonna take biology and chemistry both next

Caroline 41:45

Ah.

Jen Heemstra 41:45

you'll be back on track." And, I was just so fortunate, to have that person in my life who saw that potential. And then eventually I got into, like, Academic Decathlon that she also coached, and I had her as my AP Chem and AP Physics teacher.

Caroline 42:00

Oh, wow!

Jen Heemstra 42:01

and she was just an amazing, amazing human being, um, who believed in me. And the other thing I learned from that, too, is that If I had been told, "Oh, you're really good at science, you should do Science Olympiad," I probably would have had all of this expectation weighing on me, I probably either wouldn't have enjoyed it or would have had so much pressure I, I would have not done my best at it. It would have been like, "Oh, I'm so stressed. I have to memorize all these rocks," or whatever. but because I could just be there do it purely out of, that intrinsic motivation, it was like, it, it was the day I learned about intrinsic motivation,

Caroline 42:42

Yeah

Jen Heemstra 42:43

the ability to just be like, "Nobody's expecting anything from me. I'm not even supposed to be good at this. I'm not even supposed to be here, but I'm just doing this because it seems fun." That probably played a major role In me becoming a scientist. And actually, I look back and I see all of these wild connections now. It's so funny because one of the moments... Even once I decided I wanted to go into science, I was more thinking like astronomy or maybe physics. You know, chemistry wasn't on my radar at all until the middle of college. but there was one particular night when, this coach who'd been kinda working with me and talking with me about my home situation was like, "Okay, well, if you ever feel ready to like, you know, kinda like stage the intervention and talk about what's been happening," she was like, "Look, I'm having a study session this evening, if you go home, you know, if you feel like you can have the conversation, this is a night where you can then come back here and hang out in the classroom while I have this study session with this other class." and then she was like, "And if you feel like you can't go home after that, we'll find, we'll find something." and so I was like, "Okay." And then it worked out that I did have the conversation. I went to the study session, and I spent... You know, the s- the class was having a study session. I'm just like hanging out.

Caroline 44:07

Yeah

Jen Heemstra 44:08

And the thing that I did that is so wild, and I will never forget this, is she was just like, "Look, you need something to, to just like steady your mind and, and steady your emotions." So she gave me a molecular modeling kit and like a biochemistry textbook, and she was like, "Here, make all the DNA nucleotides." And, and I sat there, and I was like, "I made adenine," right? And I will never, ever, ever forget that. But what's so wild is that my lab does nucleic acids now.

Caroline 44:37

Oh my gosh

Jen Heemstra 44:38

know that those things are connected, but I just look back at that and think, wow, how interesting that the ties between kind of saved me from, a lot of things early in my life is now what I do for a living, and how fun that is

Caroline 44:58

See, that's the thing. It's like there's been element, w- literally elements, but there's been like things of who, of who we are

Jen Heemstra 45:05

Well played

Caroline 45:06

That have been there all along, right? That have been there all along. And like so I thought I was too much or I thought I was not enough, and the reality is I was just becoming. I was just becoming into this thing, right? And you know, once you're trained as a scientist you, you can't go back. You, you can do different careers, you can do different things, but your way at looking at the world, your way of iterating the scientific method, the like, nice opinion, bring the data. You know, like but it's all still foundational and helpful for like whatever direction somebody becomes, lab leader, industrial person, whatever.

Jen Heemstra 45:40

Yeah.

Caroline 45:40

Now you met-

Jen Heemstra 45:41

my case, like, if you asked her this story, she might be like, "I just handed her a biochemistry textbook and said, 'Make things.'" And it was me who chose nucleobases. Like, that's entirely possible.

Caroline 45:50

Who knows?

Jen Heemstra 45:51

just remember making adenine and being like, "I made adenine."

Caroline 45:55

Okay, now is this, 'cause you mentioned this, I've heard this on a couple different podcasts. Like, it- is this the time that literally saved your life in high school? Like, what do you mean by that? What was that? And, and I'm not trying to pry, but

Jen Heemstra 46:07

Yeah. so well, kind of trigger warning for anyone in the audience, but, the situation hit a point where, I actually out one night with a plan to end my own life, and I didn't. but I also didn't really come back from that in any healthier of a state. and then... I'm gonna totally cry as I tell the story, but that's okay. like I said, levels of vulnerability that make other people, really nauseous are like a T- what is it? A Wednesday afternoon for me. But I, I, I came back and, sometime after that, soon after that, I told this teacher, I shared with her that I had, had this experience. And I mean, she was amazing and incredibly supportive. and then the next day, when I... I was in her class at that point, I forget, AP Chem or AP Physics. I was in her class, and I got, you know, the little-- You'll probably relate to this, when you get the little call slip, in your class. Someone comes and delivers it, and the teacher reads it, and is like, "Oh, you know, Jennifer, go to the principal's office." and it was, the social worker, school psychologist or... You know, I didn't have a frame of reference to understand exactly what people were. But, but some sort of social worker or psychologist, who then, started talking to me about what was going on in my life. And we talked about kind of what my options were. I was almost 18, and so it was the conversation of like, do I go emancipated? Do I go into foster care? it was just on the borderline where I didn't have to do those things. Like, I could stick it out, in my home, and just try to like make it to 18. and so I was like, "Okay, I think I'll do that." And actually, out of this kind of intervention conversation I had, things actually did get better, or at least got like... It was kinda like, "Okay, you just do your own thing, and like, you know, you can stay here, and we'll just not worry about the rest." and, and again, all of this, there was a lot of, rebuilding of the relationship, in adulthood. the teacher really, you know, kinda saved my life by, Well, I didn't know anything. All I knew was I got a call slip out of class. And like, I'm talking to the social worker, who knows what happened. and then when I came back to class, or it was after school in Science Olympiad or whatever, the next time I saw this teacher, kind of, pulled me aside and said like, "Oh, how did that conversation go?" And I was like, "Oh, it was really good, and really helpful." And the part that's always gonna make me cry is that she was like, "I felt like..." Well now I know she's a mandatory reporter. She was like, "I literally had to say something. and I about you, and so I really wanted to say something." She was like, "But I was so afraid you were gonna be really mad at me I had to report this, and that then you had to talk to this person." I was like, just knowing that an adult actually cares about me enough, that like an adult who I care about in my life cares whether I live or not, like that was such an incredible feeling. And so I now think about that in my own role actually as an educator that, you know, I try to... If someone's about to tell me something that I would have to report, I'm pretty good about being like, "Okay, what you're about to tell me, I'm probably going to have to report." but I often get in situations where I'm like, "Oh, this person's gonna really hate me that I have to report this," then I think about in my own life it was just like, "Oh my goodness, like that means that like one person actually cares about me enough to have done that." Like, okay,

Caroline 49:53

Yeah.

Jen Heemstra 49:54

like, I can be okay.

Caroline 49:56

Oh, thank you so much for sharing all of that, and for being vulnerable, and for reminding everyone that whatever we're experiencing, it doesn't have to be so isolating. It doesn't have to be alone. And you had developed a relationship, with that teacher, and she had

Jen Heemstra 50:19

lucky

Caroline 50:20

She had seen in you so many great things, and even the friends that saw in you great things and wanted to enjoy their Science Olympiad experience while having you in the same room, right?

Jen Heemstra 50:32

good friends

Caroline 50:32

the connections that we make and the listening and the putting ourselves in uncomfortable situations and allowing people to know, "You know what? I'm not okay."

Jen Heemstra 50:45

Yeah

Caroline 50:45

That admitting of I'm, I'm actually not okay, and it's okay to say I'm not okay, I think is so important. And for people like you or like that teacher to pick it up and be like, "Oh, you're not okay? Awesome. Oh, I see you."

Jen Heemstra 51:00

I realized how fortunate I am, right? I was so privileged that I got to go to a really good high school, and that I had this incredible, incredible caring teacher who, went out of her way to make sure her students were okay. I often think about, you know, we've been talking a lot about how kind of trauma or difficulty or challenge or failure or whatever has actually, made us who we are and enabled us to do the things we do, and I definitely, I'm a huge proponent of that. Like, I would not be here doing what I'm doing. We wouldn't be talking at all if I hadn't had my tenure vote, right?

Caroline 51:39

Yeah

Jen Heemstra 51:39

set me off on the path of caring about leadership and being on social media and talking about these topics, and a lot of things that happened in my last job set me up to lead in the way that I do in my current job. But then I always have that thing in the back of my head of like, yeah, but a lot of people, for you, for me, for a lot of people, you know, the trauma or the difficulty or challenge or whatever it is, the bad situation, it makes us who we are and it fires us, like, out of a cannon. You know, I say I was like a slingshot, stretch, stretch, stretch, and

Caroline 52:09

Yes.

Jen Heemstra 52:10

was let go, it's just like,

Caroline 52:12

Yeah

Jen Heemstra 52:12

I'm, I'm going. Um, but then for every one of those stories, there's so many stories of people who just break and who never come back. And so I think a lot about I wake up every day with an incredible gratitude. I just have this sense of wonder of like, oh my goodness, I never, ever, ever in my wildest dreams thought I could be where I am and have the family that I have and have the life and career and friends that I have and be doing the things I'm doing. And I just have this sense of wonder and gratitude every single day. But then I often think about what was it my life? Most of it probably wasn't me. Maybe some of it was, I was a pretty driven kid. Like that was, I think that was evident from a young age. But probably most of it was not. It wasn't like through my effort that I made it instead of just breaking. It was a lot of things in my life and people looking out for me and really fortuitous situations that made the difference between where I am now and just being in a very, very different kind of broken place. And then I always think about how do we bring more of those sorts of things to everyone, you know, to the people out there who, who, you know, might be in similar situations. How do we ensure that everyone has that same, that same support community or the same opportunities to thrive even in difficulty? that's such a huge question, right?

Caroline 53:51

I think it is. And I think also some of the things of like from your growing up or from my growing up is like, you know, if you lack resources, you learn to become resourceful. If somebody says no, you learn to go try to ask somebody else who might say yes, right? And I think those are the things that... And like I studied fracture, I studied catastrophic failure, I studied how cracks initiated and grew, and I got to break a lot of things. And I also learned how to be able to design things to be more resilient, for the structure, property, performance, relationships of a material are the same things that can help us as humans. When you understand your inherent structure, when you understand what are your natural abilities, what are the things that you do that's giving you energy, and what are the things that's taking away and making you feel like you're working against the current of the river of life, you can go back. So even if you broke, you can still recover. You can still bounce back. You won't be the same, but you will be better, right? Even that like Japanese, like kintsugi or something of that. Like

Jen Heemstra 54:59

Yeah,

Caroline 54:59

break all that stuff that like... And then they like fuse it with gold of the broken pottery. That's the things from us. And for any single person who's ever questioned, "What am I doing? Does anyone even care? How am I gonna make an impact? How am I gonna make money? How am I even gonna get dinner? How am I going to dress, feed, clothe this life in front of me? How am I gonna stay in this? Do I have to stay in this?" You absolutely can make one tiny choice today that helps you to get somewhere better, that helps you to get to your next success. If any one of this is

Jen Heemstra 55:38

get that. I will say though, I think there has to be... I mean, this is like you started talking about Mel Robbins, right?

Caroline 55:44

Yeah.

Jen Heemstra 55:46

like, the...

Caroline 55:46

The let them

Jen Heemstra 55:47

on a podcast, like, the 3, 2, 1, just do something.

Caroline 55:50

Yes

Jen Heemstra 55:50

and I use that, right? Like, when I'm tired and I don't wanna get out the door, it's like, "All right, I'll just commit to running for three minutes or something,"

Caroline 55:57

Yes. I guess I don't have it here, but she had a book called... she has a book of the let them theory, and it's

Jen Heemstra 56:03

yeah.

Caroline 56:04

green and it's amazing.

Jen Heemstra 56:05

podcasts,

Caroline 56:06

Yeah, and it's like, "Oh, somebody else, they don't want you to be at their conference? Let them."

Jen Heemstra 56:10

It's very helpful in leadership, but what I was gonna say is that, there is some amount of, always have something in our domain of control that we can do, but coming back to that art where you put the broken pottery back together, it also takes someone else to pick up the pieces and put them back together. And I think Maybe the intentionality is finding people in your life who are there. mean, I think about my amazing, amazing, amazing spouse who has been that person for me so many times, or my closest friends, and it's that, you know, we can't always put the pieces back together ourselves. And often what makes a difference between just staying broken and becoming whole and stronger and in this more beautiful place is those other people who are in our lives who can come alongside us and be like, "I see that you are broken. W- we're gonna, we're gonna put this back together. You know, we're gonna work together.

Caroline 57:05

Yeah

Jen Heemstra 57:06

you can recover from this." And, I often tell, anyone, but especially, students, early career folks this, of like, if there's one thing to do right now, it's build that support network.

Caroline 57:18

Yes

Jen Heemstra 57:18

life, career, whatever it is, is probably gonna break you at some point. It may not be bad. It may not be completely shattered in a million pieces on the ground, but you're gonna very, very, very likely get broken by life circumstances, career circumstances, whatever it is. And put the people in your life who are going to help you bounce back from that, who are gonna help you, put all those pieces back, help you heal those cracks, help you how you can come back stronger and better, and how you can use this to, be even more of the person you want to be, whether that's more successful or kinder or a better leader, whatever it is. But having those people in your life makes such a difference

Caroline 58:05

I love that so, so much. I feel like I'd like to try to extend an invitation to talk more about stuff we didn't get to talk about yet, because I could just go I know we didn't get to it, but, we got to so many other things. I love the organic unfo- again, chemistry, but I like, I love the or- the unfolding of the conversation, and I'm so grateful for you, for the presence that you are, for the leadership lessons that you share so freely, for the vulnerability that you show and your emotional intelligence. It's so rare to have a scientist that's, intelligent, yes, and emotionally aware, emotionally intelligent, not only for your own self, but all of the work that you do to help inspire so many others of the future generations. And so I just want to thank you for the gift that is you. I look forward to our friendship continuing to develop.

Jen Heemstra 58:59

Thanks so much for having me on the podcast.

59:01

Be sure to listen to the next episode as we continue the conversation with Dr. Jenn Heemstra. See you then.

Speaker 59:07

Thanks for listening to Your Next Success with Dr. Caroline Sangal. Remember, authentic success is yours to define and includes aligning your career to support the life you want.