Michele Novack 0:03

I was very successful, but I dove myself into work, to the detriment where I ignored everything else, right? Because that's what you do, working the two jobs, trying to survive, doing this. And you, you don't realize it, but again, doing the work and unpacking everything, you start to look back at all those things. You know, I never appreciated all the success that I actually had. the accolades that I have that I was able to do for myself, I never enjoyed that.

0:30

This is the Your Next Success podcast, and I am your host, Dr. Caroline Sangal. I am a life first career coach and strategist on a mission to normalize questioning your career. We explore how to build a career that truly fuels your life. So you can become your own version of authentic success, one that is aligned, meaningful, and truly yours.

Speaker 3 0:57

Michelle Novak is the founder of Cardinals Byte, a cybersecurity risk management firm helping small businesses navigate compliance with clarity and confidence. Before launching her business, she invested more than thirty years building a successful career rising to executive leadership roles at Bank of America and Capital One. She is also the author of two books on mindset and entrepreneurship. In this conversation, you'll hear how Michelle's journey through resilience, healing, and self-discovery led her to redefine success, discover who she is beyond the titles, and build a life and business rooted in purpose

Caroline 1:38

Michelle Novak, welcome to Your Next Success. I'm so glad to finally be talking with you.

Michele Novack 1:44

Hey, how are you doing today, Caroline? I'm excited to be here as well. Thanks for inviting me to the show.

Caroline 1:50

I loved you from the moment we first started to get to talk, and, you have such an inspiring story. Not only are you an entrepreneur yourself, but also you help so many other businesses with cybersecurity, and that's not where the story started though. So, let's take it way back. Help me understand, where were you born? What was life like for the very youngest Michelle?

Michele Novack 2:10

So I was born in Yonkers, New York. Uh, you can tell by the Yonkers, we say z at the end. You know, I grew up there all my life. My entire family was there for a long time. I was born in the '70s, right? And then grew up in the '80s there. So it looked like running the streets, playing with all our friends, riding our bikes, the normal things that kids normally do. I had a dark side in my past. You know, when I grew up, I was molested as a young, child, and that, that really impacted me later in life, but not really understanding the trauma that it brought along and everything else. But I had a great childhood with meeting great friends, and I still have those friends today, right? Like, we still talk, and we still laugh. you know, went to local schools, met a lot of great people, and a lot of those things, really kind of built who I am today, I think. Being out on, as we call it, the streets, right, playing at night, we knew that, you know, you had to be in when that, that light came on.

Caroline 3:13

Yeah, when the streetlight comes on, it's time to be back home, for sure.

Michele Novack 3:18

So that's, those are the kind of things that, you know, we went through. I always went to school, but ironically,

Caroline 3:23

Yeah.

Michele Novack 3:27

because of the trauma that I had you know, around 12, 13, I started to do things that I probably shouldn't have done. I was acting out and things like that. But, I didn't understand why I was acting out, obviously. But I'm happy that I made it through, right?

Caroline 3:38

Oh, for sure. were you aware of your trauma while you were little, or did you block it?

Michele Novack 3:45

I

Caroline 3:46

And how did acting out look like for you?

Michele Novack 3:48

Yeah, so, I was aware of what was going on.

Caroline 3:51

Yeah.

Michele Novack 3:55

When you're dealing with my background, that's what we come from. So if you know anything about the I- Italian family, everything is hush-hush, quiet-quiet, secret-secret. You can't tell. You can't share. Everything is about embarrassment and everything else. And, you know, I'm sure a lot of people can probably identify with that, not only in my culture, but other cultures, right? You wanna keep those secrets. So, you know, I spoke up. About what happened.

Caroline 4:15

Ugh.

Michele Novack 4:15

But the family shut it down. They made it look like I was going through things

Caroline 4:19

Yeah.

Michele Novack 4:23

So I had wind up I think I was 12, and I mentioned it to one of my friends whose father was a cop. He came over that night to talk to my grandparents and my mother and, and it was like, "Oh, you know, they're going through a divorce. She doesn't You know, she's confused," blah, blah, blah. So it became one of those things. I never really understood it. Again, I was 12. What happened is, is when I was 16, 17, it happened to my younger sister, right?

Caroline 4:50

Oh.

Michele Novack 4:51

it happened again. So now it became, again, blown under the, the wind. So you don't really I don't think you really realize how it impacts you, and I didn't know how to process what was going on. It stopped, obviously, for me, but moved on to someone else. you know, and that's unfortunate, but it did happen. It could've been prevented, but the way family dynamics work, they're on- You know what I've learned, you know, your parents, their parents, everybody learns, and you break a cycle each, each life you go through, right? of course, it impacted me unconsciously, I think I would say.

Caroline 5:25

Yeah.

Michele Novack 5:26

My parents were going through a divorce. There were a lot of things happening at that particular moment in time, so you add all of that. So of course I was gonna act out. I didn't wanna go home. You know, I ran away. I, I tried to kill myself when I was 13, these are things that happen because you don't know how to process what's happening to you, and

Caroline 5:45

Right.

Michele Novack 5:48

do the mind work, do the mindset, clear all that trauma. And that doesn't come until later in life,

Caroline 5:54

Yeah.

Michele Novack 5:54

I got into therapy. I think the one good thing is therapy throughout life, right? Like,

Caroline 5:59

Interesting.

Michele Novack 6:03

that support, that help, because that's really kinda what set me on the path as I got older to pull away from my family. I moved out when I was 17, dropped out of school, right, at 16 went to college, though. I joined college. There was a pre-program back in the '80s where you can join college, get your GED, and then that set me on a course, right? I met the right people who guided me, and I pulled away from my family a lot, right? Like, I, I, I was close to my sisters, my mom and stuff, but I really kinda just went out on my own, and I think that was more of a survival, protection, finding who I am. Met... You know, again, hung out with a lot of good friends. That's what we did. We...

Caroline 6:43

Yeah.

Michele Novack 6:43

I worked, got a job. I did very well, right? Like, my first job really started when I was 14. I was doing newspapers

Caroline 6:53

That's cool.

Michele Novack 6:54

You progressively do things that help you without realizing it until now, right?

Caroline 7:02

Yeah.

Michele Novack 7:03

you look back at your life, realize, aha, like you said, right? That's why I did that, so that's why this happened. You kinda put all those puzzles together, and it makes a bigger picture, especially as you get older in life, right?

Caroline 7:17

Now, were there certain subjects that you liked more than others?

Michele Novack 7:21

I've always been a fan of history, the law, right? Like justice, and I think that drives from what

Caroline 7:28

Ah.

Michele Novack 7:29

When I was in school and then I went to college, I took pre-law. Like, that's what I studied for the next couple of years. I thought I wanted to be an accountant at first, and then, you know, as I was in, college after I, you know, I started to take classes and stuff, I realized that that was too boring, too monotonous. I have a brain that's always, always on

Caroline 7:47

Yep.

Michele Novack 7:49

I got into taking pre-law classes and went all the way through, right? Like seven years. Took my LSATs, but then I had gotten pregnant, right? Like, I got pregnant. So eight months in, I was gonna graduate like, after... and I didn't even graduate because I had my daughter, Like, so there were a lot of things that, you know, you kinda never finish, and I didn't go back because I was a single mom at that point. So there were a lot of things that kind of, you

Caroline 8:17

Yeah.

Michele Novack 8:17

just happens. And I never looked back, and I don't regret any of it. Like, I never looked back and said, "Oh, I should have became a lawyer." No, that didn't happen because that helped me. I... The one thing I always had that was really good, and I don't know, I always say the universe always aligns and gives you what you need, and God always follows. You just have to have faith. I was working two jobs, you know, when I moved out. I was going to school at night four nights a week in college. You know, I did what I needed to do, and taking those classes really helped me understand part of the trauma that I went through, also. And you... it's a good thing because you just kinda keep moving forward. But, you know, I worked at the hotels when I transitioned. I had a really good job at the hotel. I was doing banquet waitressing, then I went into the HR department. You know, became an HR generalist, blah, blah, blah. I spent the next 13 years in the hospitality industry, running, HR in hotels. So, like, I had a really good stint and then I got very sick. I had snapped my, I think it was my disc in my neck. I was out

Caroline 9:25

Wow.

Michele Novack 9:25

my daughter 'cause I had moved out there at one

Caroline 9:28

Yeah,

Michele Novack 9:28

open up a hotel. And I couldn't move, right? Like, I remember my daughter, they had to come out and get my daughter, and she had to come back to New York and live with my family for six months because I was in the hospital. Something had happened where my disc, you know, just collapsed

Caroline 9:45

what happened? You were just, like, doing whatever and next thing it-- you...

Michele Novack 9:48

I was driving

Caroline 9:49

Wow.

Michele Novack 9:51

Yeah, Caroline. I was driving when it happened, and I'll never forget that. And I don't know what happened. All of a sudden I remember like- Just blacking out. My daughter was in the car, so thank God I didn't hit anything. I kinda, like, hit the curb.

Caroline 10:04

Yeah.

Michele Novack 10:07

slow enough, I guess.

Caroline 10:08

Yeah.

Michele Novack 10:08

My head started to feel, like, massive pain, but whatever. They don't hold your job. You go out on FMLA, but then they can replace you, so that's kinda what happened. That forced me into another transition in my life, and I started to get... I remember I was still out in Ohio. And I started to work for a company called MBNA, which is massive credit card company. They were one of the first credit card companies out there,

Caroline 10:29

Yeah.

Michele Novack 10:30

into- Oh collections with them. I got a job after, you know, I got better. working with them, and then, you know, went into finance, banking, and then that just kinda catapulted my career in banking. know, became a VP in banking for Bank of America, and then I went over to Capital One,

Caroline 10:47

Wow.

Michele Novack 10:48

how- I

Caroline 10:48

Yeah.

Michele Novack 10:48

auditing and, you know, I've had a career that's been crazy, right? And then at Capital One, the writing on the wall came, right? They were very progressive technology-wise, Caroline. So one of the things that I'm happy for is Capital One was always very good about pushing you to learn and drive and do different things, and they had their tech college, and I started to teach cybersecurity, and that's what got me interested in cybersecurity.

Caroline 11:13

interesting.

Michele Novack 11:14

said, you know, okay, well, you saw the writing on the wall with the restructuring. People were getting, you know, let go and, whatever it was with the departments, and

Caroline 11:21

Yeah.

Michele Novack 11:25

I used to go to banks and, the branches, and I would go audit and then do risk management and all of that. And eventually things happen, So, you get that call on a Wednesday and you're here and and, this is where you're going next. But before that even happened, I started to go back to school to become a cyber... I got into cybersecurity. I became a cyber engineer. And I drove into that, and thank God I did that because when that did happen,

Caroline 11:54

You have always been extremely perceptive about what's going on, what am I doing, what could I be doing differently, what could I be doing next? And so you're at a large company that has resources to help pay for people to get new certifications and things, and even though you're extremely busy, you make that time for education. And even after you moved out, you're working two jobs while also going to school. So this is like kind of a really important thing, I think, is that you're just like, "Oh, wait, I, what can I do if I get that?" You know, let me tr- get that training lab, that constant love of learning, that constant desire to just make it happen, find a way. And so you start... you start a leveling up on your own skills by realizing, "Wait a minute, wait a minute, this industry is starting to have profound changes even then. What can I do-" To get ahead, what can I do to get a new skill set that may come to serve me if I need it? That is so, so smart, so many people are just busy doing the day-to-day that they forget to think about securing their future. And I didn't realize that that started while you were still working. Okay, so let's talk about this HR call on a Wednesday, because I- it kinda went by quickly. So you had started going to school for cybersecurity. You're at a really well-known company in a great position, and then what was that HR call about?

Michele Novack 13:33

Right before that happened, there were things going on. There was new leadership and everything else. And again, I already saw the impact with other people that were colleagues, right?

Caroline 13:44

Yeah.

Michele Novack 13:44

happening.

Caroline 13:47

Things were happening, meaning they were losing their jobs?

Michele Novack 13:50

Yeah, they were already losing their jobs and given packages and severances, and all companies do that. I understand that from a business perspective because I ran branches and everything else, and it's part of those, you know, this is what we have to do. We have to realign and that's natural.

Caroline 14:02

Yeah.

Michele Novack 14:03

especially as you grow and you continue, and you have tools and technology that's implemented within it. So, there were issues with the new leadership, right? I honestly believe they were threatened by me because I had applied for that particular job,

Caroline 14:20

Mm-hmm.

Michele Novack 14:21

When you have that and you have a new leadership come in, and they know that you were looking at their job It becomes a, a mental challenge, like the white elephant in the room. So I think that's kinda catapulted. The one thing I have to give gratitude for the company is when they do something like that, there's a couple of different packages. They, they kept me on, and they gave me the ability to work and try to find another area that I can go into and everything else, which was very good, right? Like, most companies don't do that. And I did that. You know, the... I, I got my severance and, you know, I w- I was working in other departments and, you know, I could have stayed on with them. But, you know, I think the reality check came in that this can happen at any time, right? Like, you...

Caroline 15:05

Yeah.

Michele Novack 15:10

years with the same company.

Caroline 15:11

Thanks

Michele Novack 15:11

people today, and I see it over and over, work two, three years. And the younger generation hop around like bunny rabbits.

Caroline 15:17

Yep.

Michele Novack 15:18

them because they are, they have a different mindset than we do at, you know, what we were taught, right?

Caroline 15:22

Yeah.

Michele Novack 15:23

your head low.

Caroline 15:24

Yeah.

Michele Novack 15:26

That's, again, it's a cultural thing. It's how you're raised, how you're taught, what your beliefs are, and you have to get rid of all those beliefs in order to grow and kinda become someone. And follow your own path. I was devastated, don't get me wrong. I was devastated for a lot of reasons. It impacted me emotionally, mentally. Went down. I was depressed. I... You know, there were a lot of things that happened. Again, you know, I was prone to crisis at that moment. You know, there were a lot of things that just kind of percolated, and I had to make a decision on where I was going mentally for myself and everything else. I had things going on with my own personal relationship with my husband and this and that and, you know, when you add all that pressure on and then, you know, financially, there's a lot of things that kinda

Caroline 16:10

Yeah.

Michele Novack 16:10

Just spin out of control.

Caroline 16:12

Yeah. So even though getting a severance package, this change in identity, this change in work, this you're seeing, I don't know that I want this if I'm just one business decision away from being high and dry, left on my own, and then having challenges in your personal life. Like, the whole thing just seems like how did you keep going one foot in front of the other in the midst of all this external chaos that a lot of it, it wasn't in your control, but yet it was very much affecting

Michele Novack 16:39

to make-

Caroline 16:40

ability?

Michele Novack 16:41

I had a breakdown. I mean, I had to go back to therapy. I tried to hurt myself. Like it, that's really kinda what happened again. And you know, your mind, I've learned the one thing, anything you put in your mind, it's what you tell yourself. That is the one thing that I've taken away from all of this. I understand now what I tell myself in my mind is what is real. The mind doesn't know anything different. what you tell it. If you tell it that you're afraid of apples, it's gonna be afraid of apples. If you tell it that, you know, you love yourself every day and that life is good, it's gonna be

Caroline 17:10

Yeah.

Michele Novack 17:12

I learned that through therapy, and I wrote a book about it, Shifting Your Mindset to 21 Days of Abundance, and I dedicated that book to my therapist who helped me through those hard times. Lynn was my anchor, right? She got me through a lot. She helped me unpack

Caroline 17:29

Yeah.

Michele Novack 17:33

And look at life differently. That's where the work just started. I continue to do the work every day, but where it started, right? And thank God for that. But you don't get to the other side without help. You can't. I believe that you do need somebody else to get you through. And you know, today I look back and I say, "I was meant to be on that journey." knew that all of these things, and now I'm a different person. I'm a different me.

Caroline 18:03

Yeah.

Michele Novack 18:04

The biggest thing in the gap, Caroline, and I just shared this on stage at one of the speaking events that I was on, I've learned to love myself. I've learned to look in the mirror the hard work and really love who I am for the first time in a long time. I didn't love myself, you know? I, all of those things kinda, you don't realize it, but I didn't. I didn't care for me first. I always took care of everybody else.

Caroline 18:30

Yes.

Michele Novack 18:31

When you have trauma like that, you take care of everybody else 'cause you distract yourself. That's a distraction in taking care of yourself, your health, your mind, your wellness, whatever it might be. And yes, I was very successful, but I dove myself into work, to the detriment where I ignored everything else, right? Because that's what you do, working the two jobs, trying to survive, doing this. And you, you don't realize it, but again, doing the work and unpacking everything, you start to look back at all those things. You know, I never appreciated all the success that I actually had. the accolades that I have that I was able to do for myself, I never enjoyed that. You know, somebody would say, "Oh, you know, I would get my next raise and become a VP in banking." People would die for those titles. I was like, "Okay, thank you." Like, I didn't know how to accept that because I didn't love myself there are a lot of things that go along with that, Caroline. You know?

Caroline 19:29

And then what happened? Because that's the thing, and, and that is a good point that some of-- sometimes this keeping busy, working two jobs, doing so much is just really without consciously even being aware, but just keeping your mind engaged to the point that you're exhausted and now you have to sleep. And then you wake up and you do it all over, but yet you never have time. You never make time. You don't even realize you need to pause. You don't even realize there's something that you need to, like, work on because you're so busy working and doing what you think it means. Now, I, I forgot to ask you this, but, like, in your younger version of yourself, what did you think it meant to be successful? What was that idea from your maybe teenage or early 20s, you thought, "Aha, if I can only do this, then I'll be successful." And then of course it's modified now, but what did you think it was? What were you chasing?

Michele Novack 20:27

I was an '80s child, so if

Caroline 20:30

Yeah.

Michele Novack 20:30

We, we went, we hung out, we partied. I mean, I was out in the Hamptons here or there. We would go all over, right? Like, and I knew that that's what I wanted. I think what it looked like for me was, "Hey, I'm gonna have a great job. I'm gonna become an attorney. I'm gonna, you know, have the house. I'm gonna have this, I'm gonna have that." I'm gonna do everything that I wanted to do because, you know, my family wasn't well off. Like, you know, we had our struggles. And, you know, I didn't come from money. We lived with our grandparents when my mother got divorced and there were a lot of things that went on, right? But for me, success was getting a solid job, working hard, and then playing, Having that time to play when I was younger, I did that. I did that successfully. You balance, you burn the fire. You're young, you burn the

Caroline 21:14

Yeah.

Michele Novack 21:16

on a Sunday night to a Manhattan club, and then on Monday you're walking into work

Caroline 21:21

Yeah.

Michele Novack 21:22

Like, this is what went on when we were kids. I can't explain, you know, what the kids do today, but I could tell you that Gen Xers, we know. You know?

Caroline 21:31

Yeah.

Michele Novack 21:35

I lived my life and then, I got pregnant. So a lot of that stopped when I had my daughter. I stopped going out. I disconnected from a lot of my friends because they were still into that scene

Caroline 21:46

Yeah.

Michele Novack 21:49

now.

Caroline 21:50

Yeah.

Michele Novack 21:50

Taylor became everything to me.

Caroline 21:53

Mm.

Michele Novack 21:53

a single mom. I didn't wanna date anybody. I was afraid to have anybody around her again 'cause of the trauma, right?

Caroline 21:59

Yeah.

Michele Novack 21:59

unconsciously don't know, but very protective.

Caroline 22:03

Yep.

Michele Novack 22:04

I remember I was moving back from Ohio, coming back to New York. I wanted to come back to New York because I really kind of isolated myself out in Ohio, although I had friends and I had a good, stint out there. My family was back home, my mom and this and that, and I wanted my daughter to be around them,

Caroline 22:18

Okay.

Michele Novack 22:19

My friends and stuff.

Caroline 22:20

Uh-huh.

Michele Novack 22:24

I moved, it was New Jersey. I came back to New Jersey. You know, I was there and I was working for, you know, MBNA, and then Bank of America took 'em over. That's how I got into Bank of America, and it became this whole thing and, you know, I was the first one. Like, I wanted to get out of the back office. So, you know, I was in the back office doing collections, right? Like, for of America at that time when they took over, and had openings out in the branches, and it opened up my world to go out and kinda get a nine-to-five. Because collections, you gotta work sometimes until 9:00 at night. I had a young kid, had to worry about find... You know, there are things that happen, right? Like, as a

Caroline 22:59

Yeah.

Michele Novack 23:04

kinda just was the first one to actually transition out of the back office into a branch. I got an assistant manager job and then, you know, became a manager, VP, like blah, blah, blah, blah. I'll tell you, like, that really kinda defined where I was going in life, right? Like, now you had an identity. Where are you gonna go next? And, you know, you said it earlier. When you build a career, that becomes your identity,

Caroline 23:31

Yeah.

Michele Novack 23:32

Yeah. I'm gonna tell people it should not.

Caroline 23:34

Right.

Michele Novack 23:36

the problem, 'cause most people don't know what to do when that identity walks away,

Caroline 23:41

Yep.

Michele Novack 23:42

Goes away for whatever reason. It could be to failing health. It could be to anything, right? It could be to the pink slips. It could be to anything, right? And that's where a lot of those cycles of, your mind lose its ability to function the right way, and you've gotta overcome that. You've gotta build a, a strong foundation within yourself, again, loving yourself first. And it's hard because you've gotta look in that mirror and say, "Who am I?" And I tell this to everybody. Look in that mirror 100 times and say, "Who am I?" And you start crying because you don't like what you see in yourself. Look in your eyes, your own eyes, not through somebody else, because you always wanna get validated by somebody else. That's just natural, right? Like, we do these things and we trauma bond. I call it trauma bonding. You know, that's why you ch- choose the husbands or the people in your life and, you know, you trauma bond with them a lot of times, and sometimes those are toxic and not good. Right? But you trauma bond and that's why you chosen them. And you know, again, these are things that you learn later on in life. It's not something that's natural. It's not something that you don't see. And again, if this message can reach anybody who may be going through something, reach out. There's plenty of people. And don't always trust the people that surround you, because they can only guide you so much. Not to say that your family and your friends aren't good, but sometimes an external person who, with a different perspective and doesn't know you is even better.

Caroline 25:10

Yes.

Michele Novack 25:11

give you that hard fact of what they actually see or look at,

Caroline 25:17

Yes.

Michele Novack 25:19

that's what I'll say, you know?

Caroline 25:21

Imagine what your life would be like if your career aligned with who you are, what you do best, and actually fueled the life you want. At Next Success, we support all ages and stages through career transitions from students exploring majors or careers to job seekers actively searching or re-imagining their next move to professionals committed to self-awareness and leadership growth. Yeah, that question of like, who am I if I am not what I do is a huge one.

Michele Novack 25:56

That's

Caroline 25:56

such a huge one. So you start asking that question, and you start looking in the mirror, and you start getting on this journey to not just be you walking around in your body all day, but to actually start to love you. And what's the process after you start looking in the mirror? And let's say you look in the mirror and you're like, "Ugh." How do you get past the ugh and start getting to, "Oh, ah"?

Michele Novack 26:23

So you know, my book is about steps, right? Like, you have to get one chapter, you do the exercises, and then you don't... You do that for 21 days.

Caroline 26:32

Nice.

Michele Novack 26:32

what you have to understand is, I, it took me a little bit longer than 21 days, but then as I got through a process of what I needed to unpack, who am i- is a fundamental question. Because then you start to realize all these things that happened to you, and you have to live through all of those things. Every single thing, year by year, minute by minute, you have to get through it, and it's, could be crying, it could be anger, it could be anything that comes out of those questions. When you're looking at yourself and you're really asking yourself, "Who am I?" You have to be truthful. It's about being truthful and accepting, right? You may have to go through that grievance process. You may have to go through the resentment, the hatred, whatever it might be, get to the other side. So it's gonna come with things. the journey is well worth it once you release it. you get to that phase of accepting- the things that may or may not impacted you in your life, you come to the other side, and acceptance and forgiveness is even more powerful. I had to forgive not only myself, but a lot of people,

Caroline 27:38

Wow.

Michele Novack 27:39

peace with that, and put it where it belongs, right? What I've learned is

Caroline 27:44

How do you know where it belongs?

Michele Novack 27:47

it belongs with the person that it started with, not you. You're not meant to carry that, But one of the things I'll add to that is, you know, in life, have expectations of someone else, and an expectation you will never, ever, and that's one thing I've learned, it's my expectation of what Caroline should be doing. And when Caroline doesn't live up to my expectation, then I'm angry, pissed, mad, whatever it might be. Whatever emotion that triggers, right? If it's happiness, joy, whatever, right? And I only fail myself because it's my expectation. to take the responsibility and that expectation and that accountability because it's not Caroline's fault that she didn't live up to that expectation. It's my own expectations I set for her that she can't live up to.

Caroline 28:33

Yeah.

Michele Novack 28:37

Let's put up boundaries. Like in a relationship, if you're not getting treated right or you have a certain standard once you find yourself, right, and you really love yourself and you say, "You know, this is what I want from my life." Like if you love somebody, meet them in the middle, and sometimes you realize that maybe that partner is not the right partner even after 10 years, 5 years, 3 years, 20 years, whatever, right?

Caroline 28:59

Yeah.

Michele Novack 29:02

I know.

Caroline 29:03

Yeah.

Michele Novack 29:03

right?

Caroline 29:04

Hmm.

Michele Novack 29:08

that anguish because you have to pull away and do what's right for yourself, and that is hard. It's very hard. A lot of people don't, and that's why they stay in these relationships and they... But go to therapy then. If you love that person and you really feel that there's value there and they're doing the things and they're gonna give you what you need, of course you gotta make compromises in that. there's not everything hard line, but there are a couple of things that are a no-no.

Caroline 29:34

Right.

Michele Novack 29:35

Like

Caroline 29:35

are a couple--

Michele Novack 29:35

there's some red flags that you really gotta, you know, snap out of. But hard to do, you know, I see it with a lot of relationships and people and, you know, friends of mine or whatever it might be.

Caroline 29:47

Right.

Michele Novack 29:51

they're abusive, sometimes they're whatever, and they stay and, you know. I, I don't give anybody advice. I ask them, "Well, what is it that you want for your life?" Right? Like, when somebody starts telling me, I'm like, "Well, okay." You know, I'm not gonna say leave them because I know that they have to come to their own terms, right? They have to do their own work, but you can ask them questions them realize that and walk them through it, and that's what I've learned, right? Like, when somebody says, "Oh, you know..." I just had a friend of mine tell me a couple of weeks ago that her husband hit her and threw her to the ground, and I said to her, I said, "Well, how did that make you feel?"

Caroline 30:28

Yeah

Michele Novack 30:29

Right? "What... Well, what are you thinking?" just let her talk. Like, sometimes you have to not give the advice,

Caroline 30:38

how did you learn? Were you always like that or did you learn that?

Michele Novack 30:41

I learned that.

Caroline 30:43

So much

Michele Novack 30:44

that.

Caroline 30:45

people what your thing is, but nobody wants to hear it.

Michele Novack 30:49

a saver. So are you, right?

Caroline 30:50

Yeah.

Michele Novack 30:50

them. So

Caroline 30:51

Yeah.

Michele Novack 30:52

to learn that because, you know, we always wanted to go in and fix the problem. We were fixers. We're empaths, right? But I had to learn that and, know, we fail at listening.

Caroline 31:04

Hmm.

Michele Novack 31:05

And it's very hard for me to listen to people. It took me a long time to listen to what they were actually saying, and that was one of the things that I had to accept. And I think a lot of us, whether whatever goes on in your mind, when I'm talking, we all tend to take something that somebody says and veer off because we get thoughts, right? Like, our mind doesn't shut down as we're having conversations,

Caroline 31:29

Yeah.

Michele Novack 31:29

that's why people interrupt. That's why we... You know, 'cause you wanna get your word out. You don't wanna forget, and it's hard. Caroline, it's hard. And, you know, I can't say I'm perfect at it. You know, when it comes to certain things, like my daughter, I always wanna give her advice. She's like, "I don't need your advice, Mom. Don't give me your advice. I just wanna tell you something." Because you can't help it, especially as

Caroline 31:49

So hard.

Michele Novack 31:50

You wanna fix it. You wanna save them. But a- and that's... I still struggle with that. I struggle with that with my daughter all the time.

Caroline 31:57

Hmm.

Michele Novack 31:57

I'm doing better with my grandson. But again, you have these tendencies and traits that are really hard, and you battle that, you have to recognize it's happening in order to stop it.

Caroline 32:09

Right.

Michele Novack 32:10

To recognize that you're actually doing that and then stopping it, right?

Caroline 32:14

Super hard.

Michele Novack 32:15

Y- your brain only knows what you tell it.

Caroline 32:20

Yeah.

Michele Novack 32:20

That's it. I don't care what anybody says. Your brain is a computer and what you input it is what it's gonna learn. Just like AI. What you tell it, it's learning from you.

Caroline 32:28

That's right

Michele Novack 32:29

It's the same thing. AI, you're AI.

Caroline 32:32

and the thing is, is that unless people have done work, the operating system that your brain is running on was installed between ages three and five. And meanwhile, your phone pushes you for automatic updates, your computer pushes you for automatic updates. And unless somebody has intentionally done the work, and if anybody's like, "Well, what work is that?" Come check out mental fitness, mental resilience on my webpage. I'll be happy to help you understand a little bit more about your wiring, and you can become aware and decide if it's something you wanna work on. But if, unless you've worked on it, you're still operating... That's why you react instead of responding. I think we're hearing such amazing, wise nuggets from you, Michelle, because you have intentionally spent a lot of time reprogramming your brain like a computer, giving it the thoughts that you want it to hold onto and you want it to carry forward. so now let's talk about this cybersecurity 'cause we've sprinkled it a few different times. But you left this wildly successful career in the banking industry, not by choice. Well, kind of maybe, maybe by force, but you were given an option, and you chose, "Nah, no, thanks." You had already kind of done some cybersecurity education, and then what happened? Like, do you work in cybersecurity now? How did that work? And, you know, where are you working?

Michele Novack 33:59

It didn't actually jump right in, right?

Caroline 34:01

Okay.

Michele Novack 34:05

I left Capital One and I went on to another smaller bank, and I started to do operationals. They had been conserved and they were coming out of conservatorship, so they had brought me in to kind of restructure the risk governance, right? Basically operations in the back house and everything and rebuild because that were there were actually walked out in handcuffs,

Caroline 34:24

Oh, wow.

Michele Novack 34:25

and you're talking a bank,

Caroline 34:26

Yeah.

Michele Novack 34:27

I was brought in to run a department and come in and restructure that department. So I still had to work 'cause I had to make money, right? Like, I went through a lot of my savings. There were a lot of things that happened, financially throughout that process. So I was doing that and continuing with school. I was going to school five nights a week, cyber engineering, right? And it really became seven days a week because, you have to do projects. You're learning technology, you're learning processes, you're learning everything from the ground up, right? What's a router? What's this? What's that? You know, you're networking. We call it the, OSI layers. But you're learning everything and it's a... I started this new job, I was doing that because I needed a paycheck. And going to school at night doing homework, you know, You went from 6:00 to 10:00,

Caroline 35:15

Wow.

Michele Novack 35:15

I was 6:00 to 10:30 four nights a week, right? I was at Columbia, and it, was intense. It was intense.

Caroline 35:25

Yeah.

Michele Novack 35:26

So your brain was on fire, but I did that. And then, I started my business ahead of time, right? I started to build the website. I knew going to school. So I kinda was doing these things, and like you said, I've been al- always one of those that and doing things, like, I, I enjoy just doing, doing, doing,

Caroline 35:46

Yeah.

Michele Novack 35:47

And you do get burnt from it. You gotta take your mental breaks. I've learned to, do 15 minutes of work, take a minute break. Get up, walk around. And that's important. Do 30 minutes of work, take a three-minute break. Get up and walk around. Like, it's so important to break mentally.

Caroline 36:03

Yeah.

Michele Novack 36:04

I started my own business. I started to put the, you know, website. I knew nothing about owning a business. I helped my husband build a business, but I really knew nothing about running a business. So I went and I did some research resources, 'cause I've always been reliable on myself, and I found this agency called WEDC, Women Economic Development Group, that actually supports women entrepreneurs, to open a business. I wind up taking a six-month course with them. It taught me everything. I mean, marketing, this, building a business plan, finances, managing, this, that. Like, it was such a great resource, and I'm so happy I took it, 'cause I knew, again, y- I need to learn everything. I knew about hiring. I knew about running banks. I knew about running branches. I knew about all of this stuff. But when you're doing it for yourself, it becomes a lot different,

Caroline 36:50

Mm.

Michele Novack 36:50

how do you build, you know, what's a P&L? What's a balance sheet? How do you, understand your cost, right?

Caroline 36:56

Yep.

Michele Novack 36:56

How do you, you know, do client acquisition? Right? Like, I knew I had a lot of skills, and I understood it from being in banking, running branches, opening branches, and being out in the community. Like, I had certain skills, but those were already businesses that were implanted, right?

Caroline 37:12

Right.

Michele Novack 37:15

Building my brand, starting to research that. Like, I knew I was gonna be opening this company come the morning.

Caroline 37:21

Mm.

Michele Novack 37:22

that's what I started. I started building my brand, doing all of the work, the ground, laying the foundation, because that's very important. Didn't come without fears. Didn't come without crying at night, especially after, I launched it. Right? Like no money, you're like, you know?

Caroline 37:36

Yeah.

Michele Novack 37:36

become, very overwhelmed and that led to my next book, you know, Overcoming Your Fears as an Entrepreneur. But I had a lot of hard lessons and learned how to get grounded, how to build a structure around what you do, how to stick to that structure, how to make sure that you meet those goals, how to set relevant goals, check those goals, and live to what you're saying, right? So, I started to build. I got my website. I started to connect. I started to get out there. I started to get my first couple of clients. And the reason why I did cybersecurity for small businesses and I focus on the audience that I focus on is because my accountant came to me- Oh and she had to comply, right, with cybersecurity. A lot of changes with the IRS and FTC and all of this, and she's like, "I have no frigging idea what I'm doing. I know that you do cybersecurity or you're learning, blah, blah, blah. Can you help me?" So she really was my first client. Yeah.

Caroline 38:27

That's cool.

Michele Novack 38:29

I put it into place and put the process and built a baseline for her in compliance and helped her get certified because she... you need to become compliant with, NYDFS and then, you know, NY Shields and some other things. but that's where I started and then, you know, kind of word of mouth and then getting clients from here and, you know, I never paid for an ad ever. I, I could tell you right now. I don't believe in campaigns. I don't believe in paying for ads. It's all been organic, word of mouth growth, Like, that's it. You know, referrals. If you like my service, refer me. The best thing that you could do is refer me. you know, meeting, networking with the right people. I've met a lot of people and networking is very hard, right? Like, you gotta weed through that and time that you waste and so on and so forth. So that's one of the other things you learn is, you know, running a business. Like, everybody wants to hear like, "Oh, I'm so excited. I'm so important," but you're not.

Caroline 39:19

Well, I think that's a super important thing is what is the motive of the person that you're talking with? And what's in it for them, and are they being authentic, and are they somebody that you wanna align with or not? Or are they just looking to get their little pitch out and move and next, next, next, and you're like, "Okay, you really don't care about me. You're just trying to care about yourself." Versus I think more authentic networking is a give and a take, and it's a understanding, and it's a listening, and it's a trying to get to know the person first. Who are you without what you do?

Michele Novack 39:52

Right.

Caroline 39:53

So,

Michele Novack 39:54

And that's hard looking at people, right? Like, and figuring out who they are on a stance. You know, that was another skill you have to learn, right, Caroline?

Caroline 40:02

Yeah.

Michele Novack 40:03

always been good at analyzing a room walking in quiet. I've always looked around the room. I'm the one that sits and I'll analyze everybody.

Caroline 40:10

Ah.

Michele Novack 40:11

I analyze understand who they are. You see how they interact with other people. You see who's sitting in the corner by themselves. You see who's, out there loud and has that, fake face on right? Like, you watch a room. You can understand how they are.

Caroline 40:25

It's

Michele Novack 40:30

because it helps you understand your clients, your client's needs,

Caroline 40:33

good though.

Michele Novack 40:33

how they will handle things that you tell them, right? 'cause everybody's different. They all have their own unpacking to do or their own background, right? So analyzing people and understanding them is hard thing to do, I don't always get it right. You know, I don't pass judgment. If somebody... You know, I hate gossip. I'm not one of those, and everybody knows that. Don't tell me. I, I... 'Cause you wanna come up and talk about somebody, I look at them and say, "Well, did you tell them that?" Shuts them down, Like, "Did you tell them that? Because

Caroline 41:08

yeah.

Michele Novack 41:08

didn't, I really don't wanna hear it. I don't have the time for this." Right? Like, and you've gotta, again, put up your boundaries. If it's important, then you need to know it, right? Like, if it's something that impacts you

Caroline 41:18

Right. Yeah.

Michele Novack 41:19

that mean?"

Caroline 41:22

So what are your tips for if somebody is, let's say they're, they realize they need to go do networking, and whether that's for them getting a job or for them as an entrepreneur trying to, you know, gain some clients or meet some people, what are your go-to tips for if they-- you're gonna go to this thing, you know the date, time, location, now you're gonna show up in a room full of people you don't know. What do you-- how would you approach that or how would you suggest somebody consider it?

Michele Novack 41:49

Yeah, so listen, there's a lot of different tips that I can give, I'll just talk from personal experience. First of all, out there and get your brand name y- you need to know who you are, and you have to put a bio, you have to put a media package together. You have to get those things together. You have to kinda define what you're doing and what you're delivering, and you'll revise that a million times, Um, I have built into my process, every morning I wake up at 5:30 in the morning and I listen to YouTube's billionaires talk, right? Tips from billionaires, the tips from millionaires, like how they've run their business. I met, you know, I've met some influential people. I was at a conference and I met Tommy Hilfiger. Like, he, he very influential, just listening to people. So you learn from people who've already done it, made it, made their own mistakes. That's key. Have a structure in your day. 15 minutes a day to do different things that are very important. Create goals for yourself, right? I do all of my media, social media early in the morning, get it out of the way, and then I don't look at it the rest of the day. Set it and forget it, I listen to the news every day in my industry, I find out what the current trends are so I can understand, because anything that impacts my business I need to know. I need to share it with my clients. I need to take a look at our processes. I need to know what I might have to put out there, update, whatever it might be. You're responsible when you become a business owner for everything that happens within that business, whether you have employees or not,

Caroline 43:17

Yeah.

Michele Novack 43:19

connect, connect, connect. But when you're building your business and you're first... Networking is hard because a lot of people get scared. They don't, again, know who they are. You have insecurities, and when you walk into a room, that's what triggers it, and you've gotta work, again, through those insecurities. It's your own. Don't set those expectations on the other people, and who cares what they think? I walk into a room, I could care less what people think.

Caroline 43:43

Mm-hmm.

Michele Novack 43:44

If you don't like me, don't talk to me. I've... And I will tell you, "Oh, okay. Well, thank you. Bye." And I walk away. Like, I won't even entertain the conversation. If I, if somebody comes over to me and they start a conversation, I'm like, "Okay. Well, I gotta go over there. Thank you." Like, I'll walk away. Like, I won't even entertain it anymore. And again, they may not like me. I'm not, you, I- I'm not looking for that approval anymore, right? So when you're networking, I would tell you don't be afraid to take some classes on speaking, right? Toastmasters. Join your local Toastmasters. It'll help you build that confidence. That's where I started too, right?

Caroline 44:22

Yeah.

Michele Novack 44:22

help you build that

Caroline 44:23

Yeah.

Michele Novack 44:26

listen to them better. But Toastmasters is free. Like, you can join them, right? Join a local organization. Do like a WEDC or whatever it might be that will help you understand how to build a business, how to market, how to get yourself out there. Find a mentor. I mentor, I'm part of Rewrite the Code women, uh, uh, organization for cybersecurity, and I mentor young women in cybersecurity that are growing their careers and are still in school and wanna go out. Find a mentor. reach out to somebody on LinkedIn. Get yourself on LinkedIn if you're not, and look in your field. LinkedIn gives you dozens and dozens. Read people's bios about them, and if somebody connects with you and you say, "Yeah, I'd like to do that. I like what he's doing," reach out and send a message. Say, "Hey, listen. I'm looking for a mentor because X, Y, and Z." Don't be afraid of being shut down. You may have to do it a couple of times. I did it, but I found a really great mentor, and that mentor's been with me for the last four years, and I still, I need a sounding board You need a sounding board to throw things off of and a, an idea, and again, someone outside your family and your normal circle. Because I can tell you, a lot of the people that you think support you in doing this, do not. Okay?

Caroline 45:37

Well, they don't understand what you're actually doing or,

Michele Novack 45:39

Yeah,

Caroline 45:40

or they're scared.

Michele Novack 45:41

the nine to five.

Caroline 45:43

Yeah.

Michele Novack 45:43

by the man and the mission,

Caroline 45:45

Yeah.

Michele Novack 45:45

A lot of courage to become your own boss. Look at, you

Caroline 45:48

It...

Michele Novack 45:50

that have started businesses. Some of them have never even graduated high school and they've, they're billionaires, right? So y- it doesn't... you need to educate yourself, and I've always been educational. So educate yourself really well in the industry that you're in and that you're interested in.

Caroline 46:07

Hmm.

Michele Novack 46:07

That's very important. You want to become the authority in that industry. You wanna become the expert in that industry where people look for you to give advice, right? So start your own little web class. One of the quickest ways to probably do things is, you know, go to StreamYard, hook up your Facebook, TikTok, whatever you wanna do, your LinkedIn page, and set a class that you're gonna do a web class teaching somebody free, you know, right? A free class. a live event on those three channels. Do it once a week. Do it consistently. You know, maybe you have a love of how to plant flowers. do it. people how to plant flowers and how to save them, right? How to, you know, change your own oil. you, whatever you're into. You can do that. It's a very simple step, but what that will do in the world today, especially with AI and GEO as we call it instead of SEO, GEO is the new LLM where people are searching, for businesses and stuff like that.

Caroline 47:09

Yeah.

Michele Novack 47:09

So it, I, it's GEO engineering, right? Optimization. So instead of SEO, like everybody,

Caroline 47:16

Yeah.

Michele Novack 47:16

you search Google, that's an SEO s- you know,

Caroline 47:18

Yeah.

Michele Novack 47:19

now it's GEO political. It's all LLM that does it now for you, and you wanna build citations in LLM, and that's the best way to do it because they, they only build citations on news articles and actual authority, right? So if somebody's searching, you know, give me a, a small business or a cybersecurity company that handles risk management near me, I want my name, cybersecurity, you know, Cardinal Bytes, to pop up,

Caroline 47:44

Yeah.

Michele Novack 47:45

And the only way you do that is to build authority out there, and the way you do that is what I'm saying, is take the simple steps, the free steps to do that. That's very important, and that'll also help you build your brand, and you'll get better at speaking, and it doesn't matter if nobody shows up. showed up for my events. I maybe had one or two people in the beginning, and that's okay. But if you do it consistently, you'll build, because the algorithms will also pick it up

Caroline 48:08

Uh-huh.

Michele Novack 48:09

Right?

Caroline 48:10

smart. Yes. Yeah.

Michele Novack 48:13

works, right? You know, and then I got on podcast, the best move I ever made. I said, "You know what? I'm gonna talk to my story." I was scared.

Caroline 48:23

Yeah.

Michele Novack 48:27

I got my first, you know, approval, like, to be on, and you know, I remember that first conversation. It was a really good conversation. I was invited. again, you know, I was just starting my business and, you know, it is what it is. And then I remember getting, an invite to talk about, like, a podcast as a millionaire, like, "Okay." You know, I had a, a good conversation with that person. I said, "I'm not a millionaire yet," but you know. But, they, they still invited me on. You know, so, like, as you grow your brand and everything, you'll get invited to podcasts that, like yourself, Caroline, that really share educational, that do things for the community, that are building, that have a following, that, you know, mean something. But those are the things I would say as far as tips. Have a schedule. Understand the industry that you're in. Know how it impacts, right? Listen to news in this. Follow people that are influential. Get on podcasts like this to reset your mind, and join people like Caroline, right, who can help you. Yeah, and I don't say that, and I'm not

Caroline 49:31

Thank you.

Michele Novack 49:32

You have a business that is very fundamental and supports people in all spaces,

Caroline 49:37

Yep.

Michele Novack 49:38

No matter where you are at in life. Do things like that. That's very important, right? Like, have that backup. Find a mentor. Like, those are the top tips I'll tell you right off the bat, right? And then, you know, find resources in the community that can help you grow. A lot of them do charge, but I'm part of a couple of select organizations, where I can network, that's it. I'm not, you know, a gazillion. Everybody wants you to join, everybody wants you to be, but I have to focus on what I wanna do. I became... You know, I teach on a platform CPAs and tax professionals and bookkeepers and, accountants, my clientele. But I teach because of that. educate my clientele in the world of cybersecurity. I teach on CPA academy Right? So that gives me exposure not only to that clientele, right, to build your business,

Caroline 50:30

Yeah.

Michele Novack 50:32

It also gives me the opportunity to share the resources that I know they don't have, small businesses, and educate them on DIY how the industry is changing, and the regulations. So that's very important to me, right? I mentor. then my next step, I think what I'm gonna do this year is, go out into the community, and that's always been my mission, maybe to teach in schools, like high schools, cybersecurity or

Caroline 50:58

That'd be awesome, yes.

Michele Novack 51:00

interested. But, you know, you have to have time.

Caroline 51:02

Yeah. So how do people find you? How do people work with you?

Michele Novack 51:08

Yeah, so they can certainly go and find me on LinkedIn. That's probably the best way to find me. You can go to my website, Cardinals, www.cardinalsbytes.com, and you know, I'm sure Caroline can put that in her

Caroline 51:21

I will.

Michele Novack 51:21

So you can find me there. I'm on Facebook, I'm on Twitter, and this and that, but, you know, I don't sit on social media all day long. I do check LinkedIn because I get a lot of people that I interact with on, on there. And then you can just email me, Like you can go to my website, you can email me. You can do whatever you want, right? Like if you wanna find me, you find me.

Caroline 51:39

I love it.

Michele Novack 51:41

If you, want a second look and you're a small business, it doesn't matter what industry you're in, and you're worried about being hacked, phished, whatever it might be, because that's really ransomware, I could do a second look for you today and I'll do it for free, right? I can test your systems and come in and just give you a ground base and so you understand where you stand. It's, something that's very easy to do, and I recommend everybody doing that. Whether it's through me or somebody else, with everything that's out there, it's critical,

Caroline 52:10

Absolutely, Michelle. Well, how do you define authentic success for you in this moment?

Michele Novack 52:18

So authentic success is about having a business that is scaling and moving, having time for my family, most important, and balancing that. I would tell you that's the biggest success. I take the time to go and spend time with my three-year-old grandson every day.

Caroline 52:37

That's awesome.

Michele Novack 52:38

I don't care what it is, I don't care what's going on, I don't care if the world is crashing, I make that time with my daughter and my grandson. So I would tell you that's very success, right? Being out in the community teaching, watching other people, grow, that's success. And then, you know, contributing to things like this you can help others. You know, I think that's fundamental. Sharing our stories like this and hoping to impact somebody who may be struggling or having... You know, wherever they're at, meet them out where they're at in life. And living my best life yet. Building for my future because I wanna retire, right? Like, I wanna spend more time with my daughter, my grandson, and building that generational, not only wealth, but life for them.

Caroline 53:25

Yeah.

Michele Novack 53:27

I think that's what most of us wanna do.

Caroline 53:30

Thank you so much, Michelle. There has been so much wisdom. Thank you for your vulnerability, for your authenticity, for all of your, tips of how somebody can become something better, how they can overcome some of their hardest days, begin to love themselves again, and really to thrive. You just can tell the joy that is just radiating from you. So I'm just, again, so thankful and so appreciative. Thank you so much for being part of Your Next Success.

Michele Novack 54:00

Thank you, Caroline, for all that you do, and I appreciate it

Speaker 54:05

Thanks for listening to Your Next Success with Dr. Caroline Sangal. Remember, authentic success is yours to define and includes aligning your career to support the life you want.