Cameron Magee (avad3) 0:03

Quit asking me business questions. And I was like: "What? You know, I'm here to an..." You know, he's like: "I think the best thing you could do for your business would be to have a vibrant personal life. You ever thought about that?" And that just haunted me at the time. I was like: "What?" You know, 'cause I'm, I'm doing 60, 70, 80-hour weeks as a, you know, young person, no kids yet, just going for it.

Speaker 0:22

Have you ever followed something you loved before you had a name for it? Cameron Magee did, and what grew from that curiosity became a career, a company, and a culture that is changing how an entire industry treats its people. This is the Your Next success podcast, and I am your host, Dr. Caroline Sangal. We explore how to build a career that truly fuels your life. And you will hear stories from people who have navigated big career transitions themselves. So you can create a life first career and become your own version of authentic success, one that is aligned, meaningful, and truly yours. Cameron Magee is the founder and CEO of avad3, a national event production company trusted by Walmart, the White House, and many other amazing places in between. He built it over fifteen years, first from a dorm room in Arkansas, then into a team producing one hundred and forty events a year across the country. He started with a question at twelve years old and someone who said yes, and he has been asking and building ever since. At heart, you'll see Cameron is a teacher who happens to lead a production company, and the culture he has created reflects that. One where planners lead with confidence and the people behind the gear are genuinely cared for.

Caroline 1:58

Cameron Magee, welcome to Your Next Success. I've been looking forward to this conversation with you for, several weeks now.

Cameron Magee (avad3) 2:06

It's good to be on the show, and thanks for having me.

Caroline 2:08

So we are gonna get to all of the amazing, fascinating things that you do as far as putting on large-scale events that people could only dream about, not understanding, like, what all goes into that. We're gonna get to that phenomenal company that you have built. And let's start, though, at the beginning. Help me understand, like, where were you born? What was life like for the very youngest little Cameron?

Cameron Magee (avad3) 2:32

Yeah, I, I've spent my whole life in Arkansas. That's the simplest way to put it. I was technically born in Louisiana. I was there for six months. My whole family's from Texas, but I've been in Arkansas since I was two. So I'm, I'm an Arkansan. I'm thirty-six now, so thirty-four out of thirty-six years, I'm, I'm an Arkansan.

Caroline 2:49

What was your dad doing that he was kinda moving back and forth a little

Cameron Magee (avad3) 2:51

My, my dad is not entrepreneurial. Like I-- My mom... Nobody in my family has kind of the small business bug or the entrepreneurial bug like I do. My dad was a faithful bank employee, for lack of a better word, for his whole career. Incredibly successful career doing wealth management, stock portfolio kind of trading for wealthy people, and he was one of the best at it in the country. I'm super proud of my dad. But those early years, yeah, he was hopping banks and things, and then the Walton family moved him to Bentonville, Arkansas, for, for an opportunity, and he was with them for my entire life, basically just retired. So super proud of my dad.

Caroline 3:28

mom ever- anything as aside from raising amazing children?

Cameron Magee (avad3) 3:32

My mom is also a wonderful woman, world-class professional. When we were super young, she paused her career and focused on us, but once she was able, she went back to the workplace, and she was the executive assistant to the mayor in our town for, I don't know, 15 years. She just retired last year as well. I'm super proud of my mom. But yeah, I have an executive assistant now. I'm really into executive assistants. I think it's the key really for a successful entrepreneur. We call mine my entrepreneurial assistant, EA, a different E. But my mom is just a world-class EA, and it makes all the difference to the mayor. Every time they see me, "I could have never done what I did without your mom. Thank your mom," and that's how I feel about my assistant. So yeah, both powerhouses, but just not small business entrepreneurs. They still are kind of like weirded out by the amount of risks and things that I take, and they're very supportive, but it, it has been foreign for them each year, and them understanding what I do, it's still funny. But that's everybody's parents, you know? It would be a great podcast to just get on the phone with your parents and have them explain what you do. It would be a hilarious podcast, like,

Caroline 4:36

it also would be hilarious if our spouses did that

Cameron Magee (avad3) 4:39

Yes.

Caroline 4:39

Or our children, like to kinda get it from different ends.

Cameron Magee (avad3) 4:42

Yes.

Caroline 4:42

So from a very, very young age, what were the kind of things that fascinated you? Like...

Cameron Magee (avad3) 4:50

Yeah, when I was, you know, if we call it, like, zero to 12, I was just all over the place. I was pretty creative, pretty kind of vibrant. Apparently-- I was just talking to my grandmother at the, over the weekend. Apparently, I gave a speech when I was seven at her 50th wedding anniversary with my grandfather. I don't remember giving a speech. But apparently, I was just kind of like... I was into improv at school. I was into drama and choir and band and all the arts and things. I was into all of that kind of stuff, and then around 12, I found a computer. I n- I was like, "These are cool." And that's really this, like, turning point in my journey where then I wandered up to the sound booth at my church looking for more computers. I was like, "Do we have computers up here for the song lyrics?" And, I never looked back actually. I just wandered up to that sound booth when I was 12, and I've kind of been there, different church, but been there my whole career and my whole life ever since.

Caroline 5:42

were welcoming to you? Like,

Cameron Magee (avad3) 5:48

It was really cool. It was a gift. The gentleman that was there, about 10 years older than me. Of course, I was 12. He was 21 or 22 at the time and, just was really gracious to me, and I, I hope that more young people have that experience. I think, you know, maybe 100 years ago, maybe that was common for a young man to walk into a dairy or a young woman to walk into a, you know, I don't know, a local shop or something and for someone to say, "Hey, sure kid." I said, "Do you mind if I sit up here? My mom said it's okay." And, the guy said, "Sure kid, pull up a chair." And for three years, he really poured into me and just had a great, just healthy relationship of me showing up all the time and him saying, "Well, you're 12. I mean, you can't, like, run the sound, but you can help me roll these cables, and let me talk to you about sound while we're doing that." And so just an incredible mentor, that really kickstarted all of my passion, from 12 to 15, and that was just a huge awakening of my entire life. Um, God giving me those skills and gifts and abilities, putting them to work serving his church and his kingdom, and then now almost like teaching a man to fish. That's how I've just fed my family and, and paid my bills my whole life.

Caroline 6:56

That's so awesome that, that you felt comfortable enough in that church home to go on over and ask the question and, and sit there and observe and kind of really, really have somebody show you a bit more instead of being... You know, it depends on the person, right? Some people could be bothered by that. You know, my, um... I think we were talking, um, a few weeks ago, one of my kids kinda... There was a-- We moved from one, one church building to a larger church building, and they made an announcement one weekend saying, "Hey, we'd like to have t- help with our stream team." And my, you know, child who was, you know, I don't know, probably 12 at the time, turns over to me and he says, "I wanna do that."

Cameron Magee (avad3) 7:38

Yeah.

Caroline 7:39

like, "Oh, w- how do you... As a mom, how do you not encourage that?" It's like, "Well, okay, let's, let's go ask and, and let's see." And, okay, so you started helping out at church. Did you also help out then in some of the, the drama or performances at your school? You know, or, like, were you on the stage or behind the scenes?

Cameron Magee (avad3) 7:58

Now, at that point, I pretty much got off the stage. I'm on stage a little bit now in my life after this 12-year-old epiphany, but for the most part, I was behind the scenes. I think what happened there, really the awakening also around that 12, 13 age was I wanted to do production all the time. I mean, it was like I had found, you know, a treasure chest. It, it-- I had, I'd never been awakened like this is just so natural to me. I'd never really been good at anything else, particularly good. Not athletic. I don't have great skills. But I... It just seemed like production came to me like just a duck to water, just 10 times faster, everything 10 times deeper. It was so clear. But church, you know, only needs you Sundays and Wednesdays, basically. This particular church was a larger church, so we were doing weddings on Saturdays and funerals on Fridays. You know, there was stuff going on, we-women's events, youth events. But even that, I was still looking for more to do. And so I remember going to the Pee Wee football, uh, coaches in our little town in Arkansas and saying, "Hey, is anybody recording, like, the final game of the year? Could I record that and sell DVDs to the parents for $15?" And they were kinda like, "Sure, kid. That's adorable. Like, you're 13. What, you know, what do we have to lose? But I made $900, and that, that's like a million dollars when you're 13. I mean, I thought I had inherited, like, the lottery, uh, worth of wealth. And so I realized then, like, "Oh, I love production." In my little town, there's no jobs. There's no part-time jobs for a 13-year-old to do production. It's not like pushing carts at a supermarket or working scooping ice cream or something. And so I had to accidentally become entrepreneurial to, to kind of fuel this is what I wanna spend my time doing, and there's nowhere who's gonna kinda hand that to me on a plate. But if I'll just go pitch it... So I pitched to the choir director, "Hey, can you give me 50 bucks and a sandwich to be at all the final choir concerts, and I'll run the sound and make sure the microphones don't feed back?" And, "Can I record the drama thing?" And, and all these different entrepreneurial type ideas, just a few hundred dollars at a time.

Caroline 9:56

That's

Cameron Magee (avad3) 9:57

get- getting good at kind of saying, "I see something that I want. I need to pitch that. I need to convince this person it's worth the money." But then more importantly, I need to give 110% value, whether they give me $15 or $1,500 or $15,000 or $150,000 now. Like, the... It's added zeros over the years. But whatever dollar amount someone gives you, it's like a vending machine. If they put in a dollar, you've gotta give them $1.10 back. And if you do, they'll go find another dollar, and they'll tell three friends that, "You're not gonna believe this vending machine I found. You put in a dollar, it gives you $1.10." But that's the secret to business that I see now as an adult that I learned as a boy, realizing whatever someone gives you, just make sure you're giving them a little bit more back, and then they will call you three times and tell three friends. And that's the awakening I think that really happened at that young age that got me started on our small business journey at such a young, you know, boyhood.

Caroline 10:48

Where do you think that concept of, you know, over-delivering, over-giving, beyond what you're paid... Do, did you ever read Napoleon Hill? Was it an, was it something that your dad taught, you know, kind of, mentioned? Did you just stumble upon it?

Cameron Magee (avad3) 11:04

You know, I've never been asked that. I- that's a fascinating question, Caroline. I, I think, I think just as a boy, the vending machine thing that I'm saying right now comes... That's the only thing you spend a dollar on when you're a boy. You, you go to the vending machine, and, you know, some vending machines at school were a good value. Sometimes you'd be at the movies, and you're like, "I'm not gonna pay $4 for this pack of Skittles." I think at the time kind of realizing just value. And I, I read in a book later, at 16 or 17, my high school, we're in Bentonville, Arkansas. That's Sam Walton, who founded Walmart. That's his hometown. It's required reading at my high school when I was there, I don't know if it still is, to read the Sam Walton biography. And I remember reading in there this concept of value, a- but it was awakened in me at maybe 13, and then at 18 it was affirmed. Like, "Oh, this is what Sam Walton built the whole enterprise on." But just if, if you're gonna give somebody some money, you better get a value back.

Caroline 11:50

Yeah.

Cameron Magee (avad3) 11:51

that's inherent in my family. No, no one really sat me down to do that, but I can see all the decisions that my parents made over the years were never luxury decisions. We didn't have just boucus of money Um, it-- they never made some-- It's like, "Hey, this is the same car as that car. It costs twice as much 'cause it's a Lexus instead of a Toyota." It's like, let's just make the practical, pragmatic decision each time. I think that's maybe just where that value concept came from of is this worth it or not? Um, but yeah, I've never been asked that. Kinda have to think about that.

Caroline 12:19

I think though you saw your parents modeling what it was like to have amazing relationships with the people that they were serving.

Cameron Magee (avad3) 12:27

And servant heartedness certainly was from my family and from my faith and just being a servant and being humble, and that-that's my parents to a T. They're very content people. They're very gracious people. But yeah, the dollar concept or the 110%, I'll have to figure out where that came from.

Caroline 12:43

Hmm. did you have any siblings?

Cameron Magee (avad3) 12:46

I have an older brother. We've got a, a decent relationship. He's a pharmacist. He manages pharmacies now up in the Northeast. But he's also not really into the small business bug. He thinks I'm a little bit crazy. Pretty much everybody in my family thinks I'm crazy.

Caroline 13:00

How do you overcome that? you know, there's times as an entrepreneur, and, and I'm-- and we're gonna get back to high school and all the traditional Your Next Success arc, everybody. But I'm curious about this because, you know, as an entrepreneur myself, just three years into it, you know, th- it's a rollercoaster. There are

Cameron Magee (avad3) 13:17

Oh, man.

Caroline 13:17

it's like, "Yes, this is amazing. Somebody just told me that what I did helped them and

Cameron Magee (avad3) 13:23

Yes.

Caroline 13:23

in a way. This is worth it. This is great."

Cameron Magee (avad3) 13:25

Yes.

Caroline 13:26

is nice. Sometimes the, the confirmation of what you're doing is, is on the right track. I see what you're putting in the world. Please continue doing it. But in moments where- It's the, the, drop of the rollercoaster

Cameron Magee (avad3) 13:40

Yeah.

Caroline 13:41

and the moments where you start thinking, "Really?" And, and you got your family who you love so tremendously, and they're not on board all the time that this is a good endeavor or that what you're doing is the right thing. How do you overcome that?

Cameron Magee (avad3) 13:57

It's a good question. Yeah. I-- Your, your show's great. Let's go deep. I love it. This is great. I, I think, in a way it was a gift that no one in my family really understood that, that I... I, I've, I've done a lot of reading, I've done a lot of, growth and stuff over the years, and one of my favorite quotes is, I think it's John Townsend, "The greatest human need is to understand and to be understood."

Caroline 14:18

Mm.

Cameron Magee (avad3) 14:19

as a child being like, you know, "Mom, Dad, do you kinda get it? Like, I've gotta get a loan from the bank." And they're like, "We've been debt-free our whole life. What do you mean you're getting a loan from the bank?" It's like, "Well, it's a business loan." It's like, "Well, that sounds crazy," you know? But when I can't be understood by my parents or I can't be understood by my friends at the time or my neighbors at the time, it's like I've gotta go somewhere to be understood. And so in a really healthy way, I was like, "I've gotta find a mentor. I've gotta find colleagues, friends that are doing this. I've gotta-" build a small network that does understand me. And I'm actually grateful that that was sought out. I, I think my mom, dad, brother, family could have kind of faked it till they made it and tried to figure out, "Oh, yeah, let's talk about it. That's interesting," but they still wouldn't have really walked in those shoes. I, I was thankful that I was able to find people to say, "I'm seeking this out," almost like a hungry animal or a baby looking for, you know, crying, "I have this need. Someone come help me." I found mentors. I found community. Today, I've formed a cohort of other... We, we call what we do event production, so I'm a small business owner who does event production. I've formed a cohort of other people who do that, a small group from all over the country, and we get together every six months because we understand each other, and we can talk and talk about the hard things and the, you know, the law things and the legal things and the payroll things and the HR things, and we understand each other so quickly. But I had that need, couldn't get it met in traditional sense of like, oh, my dad was a carpenter, and his dad was a carpenter, and so I'm gonna be a carpenter. I couldn't get that need met, but I met it in other ways. I met it in books. I, I read so many books because I didn't understand what I was going through or what I was doing, and so I was like, "I need to read a Dave Ramsey book. I need to read a John Townsend book. I need to read a book from Dan Sullivan." You know, I need to read these books to help understand what I'm doing.

Caroline 16:01

Got lots of those right over here.

Cameron Magee (avad3) 16:03

they're great authors. They're brilliant. I'm thankful for the time they've invested in me through a book. Fifteen dollars is, is an incredible ROI. Um, and so I've sought those needs out, gotten them fulfilled in, I think, excellent ways. The first business book I ever read, I joke with other people that are like, "Oh, I don't like reading." I didn't like reading either. I hated reading in school. I was a B student, but I remember reading that book and just doing exactly what it said, It was EntreLeadership by Dave Ramsey, and, and that was not a great book as my first book 'cause I didn't have employees at the time. I didn't have a team. That book's all about being a great leader, and it's like, "Well, I don't have anybody," but I did what it said anyways, uh, because I didn't have any... Yeah, I didn't have anything...

Caroline 16:42

it...

Cameron Magee (avad3) 16:43

well, I didn't, I didn't have anything to go off of. Like, I had never worked a job before. To this day, I've never really had a job. I don't say that as a brag or a boast. It's just like a, an awareness that I don't have like... I don't know what it's like to be a manager 'cause I never had a manager. I, I did this entrepreneurial thing in high school. I started the business in my dorm room, and I've been here at avad3 ever since, and so I need a book to teach me how to be a manager. Thankfully, I also don't have, like, bad managers in my past that built habits into me of like, "Well, this is what it means to be a boss," but I had to read books. I had to find mentors to say, "I like how you lead your company. Will you teach me? I like how you're a manager. What did you read? I've invested so much in workshops and training and things over the years, but I think in an interesting question here, it didn't come from my family, and so I sought it elsewhere, and I, and I'm thankful for that, you know?

Caroline 17:30

Have you ever read Napoleon Hill? I'm just curious

Cameron Magee (avad3) 17:32

No, I need to-- Let me write that down in my notes here.

Caroline 17:35

to do... So he has a, there's a four-box set on Amazon that I just bought, but I've been also like re-listening to many of them. But Napoleon Hill wrote this "Think and Grow Rich," and he studied some of the, you know, like,

Cameron Magee (avad3) 17:48

Yeah.

Caroline 17:49

Andrew Carnegie and like Henry Ford, and he studied these pioneers in business and tried to like come up with like what are their secrets to success.

Cameron Magee (avad3) 17:59

Hmm.

Caroline 18:00

To selling and being successful? And he talks about, one of them is this mastermind principle of

Cameron Magee (avad3) 18:05

Hmm.

Caroline 18:05

a group together, of

Cameron Magee (avad3) 18:06

Yes.

Caroline 18:07

Some of it is about having a unified, you know, focus and direction, setting goals, doing that thing. Y- yeah, being a visionary, empowering people that, to come along on your journey, and these are things that you've embodied and you do, and you're absolutely living those

Cameron Magee (avad3) 18:24

Can't wait. That's gonna be super affirming. I'll, I'll look forward to reading that.

Caroline 18:27

So you, you had found this AV kind of love, helping in production and all kinds of things. You, you created opportunities, but I don't think they were even hard sells because, you know, from the perspective of a parent, yes, I wanna see my kid's game. Yes, I wanna see that. And per- perspective of anybody performing, yeah, I'd love to have a video of how that went down after months and months and months of practice. But how did you decide then after high school what to do next? Because you, you did go to college, but how did that even come into play?

Cameron Magee (avad3) 18:54

It seems like around seventeen or eighteen is the age in which I get to meet a lot of people, and I'm super thankful for that because that's such a pivotal age. A lot of young people I get to meet at seventeen, eighteen, sometimes their parents say, "Hey, will you talk to my kid? He just got his drone license," or whatever. And so let's rewind to that moment in my history. I told my dad, my senior year of high school, I was like, "Dad, I'm not going to college." Like, my senior year of high school, doing all these side hustles, doing AV around our little town, I made eighteen grand. That's like a billion dollars when you're eighteen years old. And so I told my dad, I was like, "Dad, I don't think you understand. Like, I'm filthy rich. I made eighteen thousand dollars this year." And he took, you know, took me by, you know, put his arm on my shoulder and said, "Son, I, I think you don't understand how much houses cost. Like, that is a great-- I'm super proud of you, but you've gotta, you've gotta have a longer, you know, vision than that." And so-- And again, you have to realize in our small town in Arkansas, this is not New York or Los Angeles, where we can kind of see and catch the vision of, oh, event production is a career. In our small town, like me wanting to do AV, he's like, "Okay-" Are you gonna work at the news station, or are you gonna get that job at the church that that guy had? Those are kind of like the two options. And so he graciously-- We went and met with a guy who worked at the news station. We went and met with the new guy who had that job at the church. We went and met with a corporate guy who ran the auditorium at, at, at an enterprise here in town and asked all of them, you know, "What should Cameron do for college?" And, my... I think my dad thought those hamburgers that we-- these lunches we did with these gentlemen, that they were all gonna basically kind of trick me, or not trick me, but kind of say like, "Oh, Cameron, you should totally go to college." 'Cause my dad handpicked these guys I think he knew had college degrees. And so we sat down with each guy and l- hamburger after hamburger, lunch after lunch, they're like, "No, I, I don't think it's really necessary. He could just, you know, not go to college." And so it's this really funny dance with my dad at 18. You think you know everything at 18, and I'm like: Look, Dad, this is totally backfiring. Like, I'm not going to college. All these guys say you don't need to. And my dad didn't make me go, but he sat me down and said, "I just want you to know, son, like, I really think you need to go, and I really think you're gonna do AV, and I think you're gonna hang the moon, and you're, you're gonna soar and do all that stuff. But what you can start the year after high school, you can totally start the year after college. Just go give four years. College is education. You might meet your wife there. You're gonna grow up. You're gonna learn how to eat more than just these hamburgers." You know, there's so much that you're supposed to do in college, and he encouraged me. He's like, "Look, you need to go." And I, um, I didn't wanna go because I didn't value education. I was a B student. Everything that school had taught me, I had not used, and everything I had learned outside of school from this mentor or teaching myself or books, I'd used in spades. And so I was just like: I don't wanna go. We found-- We-- I got my ACT score up, and we found a small enough college that that ACT score got me a full ride. And so he's like: "Listen, if you don't value college, Cameron, this is perfect. You can spend zero dollars." And I was like: That's about what college is worth to me, which is so disrespectful 'cause I do-- I respect higher education now. But as an 18-year-old, I was like, "This is pointless and dumb." But I was able to go for free at this very small school. And so I went, and we decided my major was gonna be secondary education, and I was gonna be a high school history teacher. And we literally picked that deg- I love history. I love teaching. But we picked that degree because I told my dad, I was like: I want summers off. I wanna know at three o'clock every Friday I can go do the actual gig that I wanna do. And, and really in my wildest dreams, I thought maybe this business would just be what it had always been, doing DVDs for parents, running sound at little concerts. I thought maybe by age 40 I would have four people working for me, maybe tops. You know, maybe we'd have like a bigger trailer, a storage unit, and some walkie-talkies. I never dreamed what Avadria's today was possible because I hadn't seen that in our small town. And so I went to college, did this kind of almost throwaway major. I say that disrespectfully, but I'm trying to be respectful about it. And, really incubated the LLC in my dorm room and really got serious about it. But that's kind of that chapter, if that's what you're looking for.

Caroline 22:53

That's awesome. Okay, and I appreciate all of the perspectives, right? 'Cause there are many things that could be right for someone. But I

Cameron Magee (avad3) 22:58

Yeah.

Caroline 22:59

so impressed that even in that young age, you had this vision of what you kind of wanted your life to be like, and you wanted to enjoy summers, and you wanted to have things, and you wanted to get... So it's like you kind of had this view of, "Well, here's what I'm doing as my life of what I want to do, and then if I have to do something else to earn money Monday through Friday, regular school hours, okay, I can do that 'cause it'll fuel what I want to do." But,

Cameron Magee (avad3) 23:26

that's just practical. That's my dad, and that's my mom, and just... it makes sense, you know?

Caroline 23:31

Yeah. and now did they enjoy their life too? They worked really hard, but did they also t-take time out to, um, do vacations and enjoy y-

Cameron Magee (avad3) 23:41

Yeah. M-my, my parents are so content. They don't, they don't live super vibrant lives, but it's not 'cause they're being cheap, whatever. They just... They're very just content, kind of, um, just they like the simple things. You know, my dad would go fishing and pretty just nor- They, they love baseball, you know, just, like, stuff that you don't have to live some exorbitant life to have. But I think the careers that they chose, you know, in the... You know, they're born in 1960 and 1961. You know, they're in college in the late '70s. I think back then is a different thinking than it is now. You know, the phrase like, you know, uh, "Do something you love, and you'll never work a day in your life," that's so common, you know, to young people nowadays. Maybe in the '70s, it was just like, "Get the best job you can with the best 401K" And so I don't think my dad asked himself in high school, "What am I passionate about?" You know, he was passionate about playing pinball. You know, I don't think he said, "I'm gonna go start a pinball business." He said, "Pinball is for boys. I'm gonna get into this finance plan," you know? I think my mom was like, "I'm gonna get really good professional skills and get a typewriter." And so I think they were looking for well-paying jobs and careers. And that's my brother too. My brother's like, "Hey, I've gotta work somewhere 40 hours a week. Pharmacists make a great hourly rate. That's what I'm gonna go do." And then... But it's 'cause my brother's into bike riding and wakeboarding and those don't pay.

Caroline 24:58

yeah.

Cameron Magee (avad3) 24:58

whereas for me, my passion can be a career, but I had to kinda make it up, and that's not something that I don't think anybody else was really up for.

Caroline 25:09

I love it though because you had a vision of wanting more. Now, from that younger, lens, what did you think it meant for somebody to be successful?

Cameron Magee (avad3) 25:18

Yeah.

Caroline 25:18

you think that w- a successful adult from that view then, what did you think that was?

Cameron Magee (avad3) 25:24

I basically came to grips in my 20-- you know, in college like, well, I'm never gonna have as big of a house as my parents have 'cause my, you know, my dad does financial services. That's probably a higher paying tax bracket than AV, you know, so not gonna have that, and my brother's gonna be g- be a successful pharmacist. So I kind of, kinda like lowered my expectations of like I'm just... If we can just have like a three-bedroom house, if I can, you know, be able to afford two kids and-- But, like, people live on teacher salaries. People are policemen. My wife's a nurse. She's an ER nurse. Like, you don't have to have, you know, these lawyer, you know, finance levels to be happy. And I, I kinda was like success for me is, like, if together if we could both make, you know, basically a teacher's salary times two. She's a nurse, and I'm doing this, and that's great. And again, I thought maybe by age 40, if I spend 20 years building this, maybe I'll have a few employees someday. T- I don't like the word employee. Today I say team member, but I'll have a few team members someday. You know, at the time I would've said that's an employee. I thought maybe we would have, you know, maybe $100,000 in equipment. We'd have a few more speakers, a few more microphones, maybe two projectors or something, and that was really the dream. And I remember around age 24 or 25, we were there, and I really had to, like, really kinda do some soul searching on is that the dream and am I done because I'm s- I'm satisfied. I've been content every year of business. We're 15 years in. Th- Next week we celebrate 15 years. And each year I've been thrilled. Like, when it was just me, I was like, "This is fun." When it was me and an intern, I was like, "This is fun." When it was me and four people, I was like, "This is so much fun." Like, each year I've loved our size. When we had a smaller shop, bigger shop, now we have a huge shop. Like, I've loved each year of it, but I think what changed for me once we hit four people and I thought, "Is this it?" That wasn't a midlife crisis at 25 of is this it. I was like, "I'm happy, but is... Do I wanna do anything else?" And I had this awakening then of like, oh, I couldn't find a place that I wanna work. What if I could create that place for others? What if I could build a place? We need to have more than four jobs here, but what if 18-year-old Cameron is gonna be in this hometown? We're still in my hometown. There's gonna be a high school kid someday that needs a job at 16 that could come work here in our shop, or there's gonna be someone who really wants to live in northern Arkansas 'cause they wanna raise their kids here. They don't wanna have to be in LA or New York to do production. What if I could build that place? And again, it's not gonna have thousands of employees someday, but we could have a team of 20. You know? We could have a good core group and build a place we all wanna work in our industry, which doesn't really care for people great, unfortunately. There's a lot of production folks that do a 14-hour day and weren't even handed a bottle of water. I wanna build a place that's, that cares for production people, that builds a place that's sustainable, so it's not just a young person's game of you go on tour for two years and then you gotta cut that out and start a family. I wanna build a sustainable place, and that's really around age 25 what I started really working on, and now at age 36, what I feel like is my life's work, is to build a place that we all wanna work. And I'm affirmed by that. We just had a guy celebrate 11 years with the company last week.

Caroline 28:35

Awesome.

Cameron Magee (avad3) 28:36

just hired a new guy last Tuesday that's, has worked in every place, you know, has been all over the industry. He's a super seasoned guy, and on his first week in the company... He gave a speech out here the other day. He's like, "I don't think you guys realize you have built a special place. This. What you have is not normal." And he's like, "I feel responsible now to steward this alongside you, that I won't be the new guy forever, and I wanna protect our culture." And that's really what gets me out of bed in the mornings now, is building a healthy environment for event professionals, you know?

Caroline 29:10

Imagine what your life would be like if your career aligned with who you are, what you do best, and actually fueled the life you want. At Next Success, we support all ages and stages through career transitions from students exploring majors or careers to job seekers actively searching or re-imagining their next move to professionals committed to self-awareness and leadership growth. Stay connected and explore what's possible at nextsuccesscareers.com and follow @nextsuccessmethod on LinkedIn, YouTube, Instagram, and Facebook. That's awesome. Okay, so I'm curious, did you meet your wife in college?

Cameron Magee (avad3) 29:52

That's the best thing of college, was I met Laura. Yeah, that's the best part.

Caroline 29:56

You know, 'cause your dad said you might, right?

Cameron Magee (avad3) 29:58

Yes. That's the best part of college. Yeah, Laura and I met. Yeah, it was awesome. That's the best part.

Caroline 30:03

That's awesome. Okay, and so then as college was finishing, and you were... I guess if you were studying teaching, did you have to go be a student teacher somewhere?

Cameron Magee (avad3) 30:10

Yes, and I loved that too. I loved the kids. I was, I was teaching 11th and 12th graders. That's great. Again, that's that 17, 18-year-old age where you have so much potential, and you're right on the high dive of making these huge moves. I loved it. And I would still... Like, if, if avad3 was just, like, a wedding DJ business, if avad3 was, like, a wedding videography, if, if our, if we were selling things $15 at a time, I would totally be a high school history teacher right now, and I would do this on the nights and weekends. But when I graduated, I decided to not get a teaching job for one whole year. I had told my parents and her parents my senior year of high sc- or my senior year of high school I made 18 grand. I said, "My senior year of college, my goal is to make a teacher's salary while still being a senior in college, still doing my student teaching." And the teacher's salary at the time, in the state of Arkansas was about $31,000, but 30- 32 if we round up, and that's a really low bar. And so, it, 'cause teachers are underpaid, just like nurses and ev- everything else, all these important people in our lives. And so my senior year of college, while doing student teaching, while turning in all my teacher's college book reports that Laura helped me do at 2:00 in the morning. You know, we got married while I was in college, so we're together, you know, early

Caroline 31:28

Yeah.

Cameron Magee (avad3) 31:30

able to-- I was a few hundred dollars short of a teacher's salary. When I walked across the stage at graduation, I tipped my hat to w- the seating section where our whole families were, and I'd put our company logo on the hat, and they were all like, "Oh, shoot." 'Cause I told them, "If I can do this, I'm not gonna get a teaching job." Which is not-- it's not career suicide for a teacher. You can totally... You have five years, but you're supposed to go get a t- But I was like, "I'm gonna go all in. I'm gonna go for one year, and I'm gonna see, can I make $33,000? Like, if I'm not stuck in class all day, can I make a little bit more? Because if I can, why would I go be..." The whole point of being a teacher was just to give me a foundation to do this on the weekends. If I can, Monday through Friday, make that much, I'll just do this. And I'm, I'm so glad that I did. When I talk to my neighbors and friends now and I say, "You would love small business. You should jump off the high dive," they're like, "I'm 40 years old. I can't jump off the high dive." I'm so glad-- I, I tell them all the time, "Let's go. It's not too late. You're not too old." But I, I'm so glad I jumped off the high dive at, at 20 in the dorm room, at 21 as a young married man, uh, when our overhead was so low and everything... I was so incubated with an all full-ride scholarship. Like, I jumped when I had so little to lose, and I'm so glad I did, and I'm so glad I've stuck with it. But, you know, now at my age with two kids and our house and stuff, I, I respect when people are like, "I can't." I'm quick to say, "You can. You-- It's a choice." Um, but I'm glad I jumped when I did, and I encourage more people to try it. You can always, quote-unquote, "go get a J-O-B," but it is hard to try the small business entrepreneur route, and I wish more young people would do it because it takes so much energy, and I had more energy at 22 than I do at 36.

Caroline 33:17

You know, I think there's some testaments to you is that you sought out opportunities to learn and gain experiences and try things, like an experiment,

Cameron Magee (avad3) 33:27

Yes.

Caroline 33:27

And you had, you know, a, a defined timeline and kinda what you wanted to, to achieve. And so you built this from, I guess, weddings and events and recording different things. And then when did you start to dream bigger? Or was it those little... The people that you served well in little things then had bigger things? How did it- How did it get to bigger? And we still haven't even, like, let everybody know, like, how big is it? You know? What's, what's happening?

Cameron Magee (avad3) 33:54

Yeah. Yeah. I'll give the destination real quick and then kind of go to the turning point. So, like, we have 20 people, which I'm super proud of. We do events all over the country. avad3 does about 140 events a, a year a-all over the country. So we're in W- We leave for Washington, D.C. tomorrow.

Caroline 34:12

Yeah.

Cameron Magee (avad3) 34:26

dentistry. You know, there's every conference imag- There, there's... Everybody has about 1,000-person, three-day general session with breakouts. Our business is being the AV crew in the back of the room. So the association or whoever it is, they book the ballroom, but then we do the stage and sound and lights and, and so we send semi-trucks and a couple of team members to all these cities. They form a local crew. We put on the show for a couple days, and we come home. But the turning point to go from like, okay, $15 DVDs to like most of those shows are around $150,000. Like, usually, I mean, we can do AV for 50 grand, but you can kind of imagine, like, a decent-sized crew and a truck and a couple of days and all the lights and sound and stuff, it costs money. And so to go from $15 DVDs to $150,000, which I never really thought about it like that, but to add those zeros, really the turning point for me, two things. Around early 20s, I ha- I had a, a, a ton of courage, and I took that courage and was willing to pitch going from, you know, what you would kinda call B2C, like selling to consumers, to B2B. And a $15 purchase price, as you said, to some parents is a no-brainer, but in some ways it's hard 'cause it's their money. It's like, "This is hard-earned $15 here." In a way, and I don't mean this crazily, but, like, $5,000 in the business world isn't that much money, and so I was able to pitch to some small businesses, "Hey, we should do a video series for you and get it on YouTube. We should shoot some customer testimonials. You're spending all this money on billboards and postcards. Let's try YouTube," you know? And people would say, "Sure, we'll give you a $5,000 shot." Well, that's massive. Or pitching to, you know, a community, "Hey, we should do six movies at the park, and I'll set up the screen and projector. $900 a movie. We'll do six. And they'd be like, "Oh, 900? We could totally do that." And so having courage to try those pitches, that's really what started almost our local or regional small business of, okay, now we're not doing just, like, the wedding. We're doing the 1,000-person gala who's raising money for the American Heart Association in our county or something like that. That courage of saying, "Hey, at a business level, if you're gonna put all these people in this ballroom, the last six years, the people in the back can't hear. I can solve that problem for you. We need about nine grand, but we're gonna hang some speakers and make it sound great and stop trusting the hotel." That courage was half of it. The other half that really was the breakthrough is not, you know... and none of this I can really take credit for. It's all the Lord blessing it and, and people giving us a shot. And the people that gave us a shot at this moment was we were doing these local events, and we had one of our clients who works at, at a big company, use us when w- they were in town, but they started getting frustrated when they were on the road Because we have a really high standard of service, and I'm really proud of that. Again, like I'm big on like give them 110% and great service and show up early and tuck your shirt in and reply to that email rapidly. And, and so this client came to me and said, "Hey, you're not gonna believe, uh, the prices that we're paying when we're in some of these bigger markets. It's so-- It's such a high price, and it's such a low level of service. Would you just mind, just to satisfy my curiosity, would avad3 quote the same show we just did last week in town, but if we were gonna be in Washington, D.C., what would that cost?" And I quoted it, and they gave it to me. And I was like, "Oh, well, they..." I, I... It was-- I was so arrogant. I was like, "We must be hot stuff." So then I quoted it in San Francisco like the same month. They said, "If we were to do this in San Francisco..." Another person asked me this, and I quoted it, and they flew us to San Francisco. And I remember on the plane ride back, I was talking to her, and I was so full of myself, and I was really full of myself for the crew. I was like, "Man, like my crew did a great job. You must have really needed us to have to bring us into California. You know? You must..." And she was like, "You saved me $10,000." You know? I was like, "Oh, we're cheaper. I didn't know." You know? I, I didn't realize we were better and cheaper coming from Arkansas. Um, with all due respect to California, like the rates are high. You know? It's just, that's how it goes. And so even with the truck and flights, we were cheaper, and that was a turning point where we started having really competitive bids at the national level, and we still do today. So that's kind of the like destination and the turning point, Caroline.

Caroline 38:42

Now coming from Arkansas though, and coming from kind of, you know, seeing the church sound and, and doing some of these smaller events, did you even start to realize what was possible and what was happening in some of these larger events going on at other different places? Like did you, did you become the mole and go see what they did from the inside? Or like, or did you just see on TV and you're like, "How they have that cool light?" You know, like how did you even expand into

Cameron Magee (avad3) 39:09

That's a good question. That's another question I don't think anybody's ever asked me. This is fun, Caroline. Um, a couple of things. When I was in college, I was a freelancer. I would go work other crews, and I got to work for some incredible production companies that I highly respect, and we're their competitors now, which is awkward, 'cause I really respect them, and I'm cheering for them, and I'm thankful for the era that I was freelancing for them. But now that we're set up, technically we're a competitor. And so I kind of salute them and have respect, but we keep our distance. So I got to freelance on some really big shows. Maybe a second thing is, I just have ridiculously high standards. And so, you know, if there's a better way to do it, I'm gonna explore it. You know, we did it-- we're do- I was in an arena this morning, right before we were on the air two hours ago, I was in an arena, and we've been doing this show for eight years, and I was in there pushing the crew. I'm like, "I wonder if we could do this better." And they're like, "We've done the show for eight years. Like, we have it down." And I'm like, "Yeah, but look over here. We could do this." It's just this constant pushing of innovation, and I really value production. Just like a chef is not gonna s- be satisfied with salt and pepper, they're gonna be like, "What if we did this?" You know? And so I think that, and then I think, I don't know, maybe, maybe third, if it's not just freelancing and kind of seeing those, maybe not just high standards. The freelancers we hire now, the people... I have been blessed to hire people that are 10 times smarter than me, and that do shows that are 10 times bigger than I've ever seen, and do 10 times as many shows that I've got to do in my career. And we have a process at avad3. At the end of every show, we basically hand out these notebooks. We do it digitally now 'cause there's a lot of paper. But we ask everyone on every crew to give us their next time notes. And so we do 150 events a year. Most crews have 10 people on. That's 100-- that's 1,500 moments where someone is telling us, "Hey, Arkansas folks, I know you did the stage wash this way, but out west we've been doing it this other way for years, and you should really look into XYZ." And so we get-- And I read every note. And so we just get the answers to the test from the crew constantly, and it's for their benefit 'cause they're saying, "Hey, we can work smarter, not harder. Quit doing it this way. We can use a forklift for this." Just dumb stuff that we don't know, but we've learned it over the years because people have been gracious to share with us, just like people shared with me. Because then when they see us the next year, we brought the forklift, and we made it easier and smarter and not... And so we've just a culture of kind of Toyota Kaizen innovation, a culture of listening, a culture of saying, "We don't know. If you've got a better idea, let's hear it," and then implementing it. I think that's what's driven us to really high standards. We serve, we serve Walmart, largest company in the world. We serve the White House, the, the biggest, you know, the honor in the world to serve that office. I think that's come from maybe that concoction, that diet of intake. But that's-- I'll have to think about that. That's interesting.

Caroline 41:52

I love though that like maybe after that plane moment where you, where you were a little bit, inflated ego at age and stage, that, that you started just- Showing this outward curiosity and vulnerability and making it a safe place for people to actually share

Cameron Magee (avad3) 42:08

Yeah.

Caroline 42:08

thoughts so that you could take them into account and continue to innovate and explore

Cameron Magee (avad3) 42:13

Oh, yeah

Caroline 42:14

how can we make this better, how can we make this better, how-- not just settling. So that's extremely special to start with that mindset as, as the leader of all of these events, to take this into account, to have a process to capture it and go back and, and continue to improve. Like, these are really, really, um, foundational, transformational, amazing workplace, ama-amazing leader kind of philosophies. I'm just so, I'm so grateful to- that, that you have these and it, and you're passing them on to really some-somebody's most important day, one of their most important events ever come off just allowing them to experience that joy of the moment and capture it and have everything work right.

Cameron Magee (avad3) 43:05

Thanks, Caroline. I didn't make any of it up. It's all from great books. I just did what the book said. I think that's the biggest posture. I talked to so many people and I said, "Did you read the book?" Like, "Yeah, I read it." I'm like, "Did you do what it said?" "Well, I don't know. I kind of disagree with it." And I'm like, I'm like, "Well, just do what it says."

Caroline 43:19

Yeah, it, but that-- So most people read something, and that's insight, and that's, that gives you 20%. But it's the action and

Cameron Magee (avad3) 43:26

Yes.

Caroline 43:27

and the practice that's the other 80% that you're right, a lot of people don't do. They just go from one book to another book to another. Like, oh, well, did you have a coach? No.

Cameron Magee (avad3) 43:36

Yes.

Caroline 43:36

I mean, even the greatest athletes in the world have

Cameron Magee (avad3) 43:38

Yes.

Caroline 43:38

right? And, and they're not just, like, listening to it and then moving on to the next coach and the next coach and just keep listening. Like, they actually go back and reiterate on their processes and, and, and do the things that were said and try them out and get the results and then iterate and go again. So, that's super fascinating. Okay, so you, you kinda grew this incrementally. You have been, you know, putting on amazing events at all kind of places. What was, what was a worst day, though? You know, you've had a lot of great,

Cameron Magee (avad3) 44:08

Well,

Caroline 44:08

of great days. What are some of the worst days you've overcome?

Cameron Magee (avad3) 44:13

there's been, there's been... I, I guess I'd put it in two compartments. There's been, you know, tough days on site where, you know, you're against all odds. You know, you rent in some extra equipment and it shows up damaged, you know, and you're like, "Oh, no." You know, event production is a lot like building construction, but you, you just... Construction has like nine months, and we have like nine hours or whatever. I don't know how the, how it translates, but you can't-- Like the subcontractors can't under-deliver or you have a problem. And so I've probably got, you know, dozens of stories of just, you know, a, a sub rental shows up and it's got a problem in it, or you show up and a, and a freelancer had a family emergency. You know, and you got a hole in the crew all of a sudden, and that's a critical seat, and the client's counting on that. And, we literally sell flawless event production, which when people read that, they're like, "You're out of your mind. That's not possible. You deal with technology. Like technology fails What are you talking about? But we, we genuinely sell flawless event production. And so some people are like, "Well, that sounds expensive and I can't afford that." And we're like, "Well, let's, let's try it. Let's, let us quote it." But we, we really sell that. But there's been shows, you know, there's been shows where a flaw happened. One of my favorite quotes from a client, he said, uh, "It's not about perfection. Perfection's impossible, Cameron. Quit, quit trying to sell me flawless event production. It's impossible. What I like about avad3 and why I keep calling you and your guys and your crew and your gals to come out and do this is, it's how y'all respond when things don't go well. You know, when the venue, the power goes out or or, you know, something happen. You know, like, you can't, you can't sell me perfect." I'm like, "I'm not trying to sell you perfect. I'm trying to sell you flawless, where the audience didn't know any better. There's stuff happening backstage, but they don't know." And so I love that quote about responding when something goes wrong. So I've got all sorts of stories of lights failing or microphones failing, and we've turned all those into checklist items now, where we have backups and all those things. But then I've also got stories just from business. You know, COVID was very difficult for all of us in business. Well, we do events, and so we went to zero revenue for six months, you know? And, and then we had to do a round of layoffs and, and I've done I think four rounds of layoffs in my career, and that's not a great track record as 15 years as a leader. Like, four rounds of layoffs in 15 years, that's pretty terrible. And there's all these moments where, my vision has gotten in the way of, you know, because I'm trying to build a place I wanna work and trying to add more seats and stuff, maybe I hired two people when I should have hired one. And moments where my vision's like, "We should go buy all this equipment," and then we look up and we're like, "That's a lot of debt," you know? And now we've gotta dig out of this hole. And there's so many moments, just low points over the years, daily. You're getting punched in the mouth as a small business owner. Someone, a key person resigns and it's like, "Oh, we had a great person. They resigned." Or you've got a person who's not a great person, now we have to fire them. You know, there's, there's a daily, weekly punch in the gut. But, just like investing in the stock market, y- you have to look back over 30 years and say, "Well, it's generally good." You know, if you look at it on a day-to-day basis, you're gonna have a panic attack, but on a general trend, I, I wouldn't have it any other way. And when I really look ahead, we have a lot ahead of us to do and overcome, but when I look behind, I've been very introspective the past 30 days 'cause it's my 15-year anniversary or 15-year celebration as a company, and we have a lot of gain behind us, more than we have a gap ahead of us. One of my favorite books from Dan Sullivan. And, um, and so I'm, I'm thankful for the highs more than, more than the lows, but I-- we could just go all night sharing lows. There's crazy stories, of course, Caroline.

Caroline 47:42

Well, now what do you do for fun, though? Like, what do you do to take a break?

Cameron Magee (avad3) 47:45

So it's...

Caroline 47:46

stuff on your LinkedIn. And I'm like, "Wait, what?

Cameron Magee (avad3) 47:49

Yeah, I hope,

Caroline 47:50

there."

Cameron Magee (avad3) 47:50

I hope people add me on LinkedIn. I love LinkedIn. Yeah, it's important to me. One of my, uh, mentors th-that... I have mentors I do a monthly call with, and I have mentors that, that I consider a mentor. They've wrote a book. You know, I-- this, this guy, David C. Baker, and I've read all his books, and he's done different seminars. Every other year he'll do a seminar. I've gone to two or three of those. I'll never forget, he told me, he said... 'Cause I was asking him for all sorts of business advice, you know, at like a Q&A session at one of the first seminars, and he was like: "You seem really driven." And I was like: "Yeah." And so I've got all these ideas, and he's like: "No, I mean like, I don't think you're gonna have any... Like, quit asking me business questions." And I was like: "What? You know, I'm here to an..." You know, he's like: "I think the best thing you could do for your business would be to have a vibrant personal life. You ever thought about that?" And that just haunted me at the time. I was like: "What?" You know, 'cause I'm, I'm doing 60, 70, 80-hour weeks as a, you know, young person, no kids yet, just going for it. And, you know, my wife's working nights in the ER, and so, you know, we're-- I'm just working, she's just working. And, um, he said, you know: "Why don't you just have a vibrant personal life? That could probably be the best thing for the business." And I kinda called him on it, and I was like: "Oh, sure, easy for you to say. You know, you're this successful consultant." And he's like: "Well, I race motorcycles competitively." And I was like: "You do what?" He's like: "I'm a, I'm a pilot. I just got my instrument, and now I fly helicopters." I was like: "You do what?" He's like: "I-- You know, we bought an RV. I've got my CDL, and I pull our..." You know, our... And he started unpacking his personal life, and I was like: "I di- I didn't know about any of that. I just kinda follow you professionally." And he's like: "Oh, that's the best parts of my life, you know, and that fuels me and..." And so I made a commitment. I think I was like 25. I was like: "I'm gonna have a vibrant personal life." There's no such thing as perfect work-life balance, but yeah. So I play drums in a '90s country cover band. We have a show this Saturday. It's a, it's a r- The j-- the band is a joke, but we've been together for 10 years, so it's kinda getting serious. We play '90s country, and I play drums, and it's great. We've got a, a real gig Saturday night. And, and I became a pilot too. I've always been a, I've always been an aviation nerd. It's ironic that he's a pilot, but my best friend in high school was a pilot. That early mentor of mine was a pilot. My best friend in college was a pilot. My law... A-all these people that I respect in my life are pilots, and so I've become a private pilot, kind of a general aviation guy. I got my instrument rating. I love flying. I serve at our church. I lead worship at our church. I'm kind of the interim guy. When our guy needs a break, I lead worship. These are the things that I do in my personal life. Of course, I'm a, a husband to Laura still. I'm a father. I've got two young boys. and, yeah, I, I work my butt off, but, um, you learn in seventh grade science class, you know, a liquid, a solid, and a gas. A gas expands to the volume of the container that you give it, and that's work. And work can keep going at 7:00 p.m. It can go on 7:00 a.m. on a Saturday, but putting that- container around it and saying, you know, this is-- at work can do this much, and I fill every orifice. Like every second that I can at work, I'm going ninety miles an hour. But I was at baseball last night for my son. You know, I'm g- I'm gonna be at baseball tomorrow night for my other son. Like th- there's a boundary in which I want growth. I want professional growth, personal, but I don't want growth at all costs. avad3 could be ten times bigger, but that would be-- it would be not worth it. I would be so lonely and sad, and it wouldn't be worth it. And so I'm thankful that avad3 is not more successful, that I have, um, things that I'm not gonna regret on my deathbed, you know, is how I would consider it now.

Caroline 51:19

I love it. So it sounds like y- for you being authentically successful, and I'm a big fan. I'm not, I'm not a fan of work-life balance. It's more like work-life integration. Is

Cameron Magee (avad3) 51:27

Good.

Caroline 51:28

And it sounds like you have defined how to have a vibrant personal life and, and a family life and ministry life and service-oriented life and, you know, living into your best self. That, to me, is what it sounds like you've defined as your authentic suc-success. But, uh, is there anything you would add to how do you define authentic success for you in this moment?

Cameron Magee (avad3) 51:51

Yeah, it, it's, it's those five things. It's am I being a good husband? Am I being a good father? am I-- do I have good health? Am I proud of myself professionally? That, that has to be part of it. Y- you can't say like, "Oh, well, there's four things plus one over here." It's five totally things. But fifth, it's, it's how am I spiritually? And so I'm a believer. I love the Bible. I follow Jesus Christ. I think he's the perfect example of, of a life well-lived, and I, I'm, I'm subscribed to trying to be as close to his example as I can. Everybody has different faith, and so I'm passionate about my faith. But for everyone, you have to be, you have to be spiritually healthy just as much as physically healthy and relationally healthy and, and all these things. I think that may be the thing I haven't covered a ton today. Um, I'm proud of my faith, and I'm not ashamed of the gospel. But I try not to turn these podcasts into a sermon. But I love-- I, I'd love to talk to, to anyone about that anytime. If you wanna add me on LinkedIn, we can talk about any of this stuff, you know?

Caroline 52:46

love it. I love it. I love that you're just living into, to who you are and, whose you are. So it's, it's just such a beautiful life. I am so grateful for you sharing your story, from being a curious child just kinda walking in and seeing what's up into, just following that and allowing yourself the opportunity to live into who you've been designed to be kinda all along and, and also helping so, so many others to provide and serve their families as well. So you so much for sharing your story.

Speaker 53:17

Thanks for listening to Your Next Success with Dr. Caroline Sangal. Remember, authentic success is yours to define and includes aligning your career to support the life you want.