Speaker 3 0:03

When you reflect on your life, can you recognize the moments that shaped who you've become?

Speaker 2 0:08

This is the Your Next Success podcast, and I'm your host, Dr. Caroline Sangal, I'm a life first career coach and strategist on a mission to normalize questioning your career because I believe each of us is made on purpose for a purpose only we can fulfill. The longer we live out of alignment with who we are, what we do best, and why we are here, the more we miss out. And the more the world misses out on what only we can give. The Your Next Success Podcast is where we explore how to build a career that truly fuels your life. We talk about self-discovery, smart job, search strategies, professional growth, and you'll hear stories from people who have navigated big career transitions themselves, so you can create a life, first career and become your own version of authentic success.

Speaker 3 1:05

Marcy Axelrod is a bestselling award-winning author. She's a TEDx speaker, researcher, and visual artist whose work focuses on how we show up in our lives and leadership. Her work grew out of lived experience, deep observation, and years of asking questions. Her path moved from early challenges to Cornell, to Wall Street, to Global Consulting, and into the work she now shares through writing, speaking, research and art. In this episode, we talk through what she experienced early on, how that changed the way she saw herself and other people, and how that perspective kept unfolding through each chapter of her life. You'll hear how she became a careful observer of human behavior, what she noticed in high performance environments, and how the questions that followed over time eventually became the foundation of her work. About how certain moments stay with you and how the things that shape you early can keep revealing their meaning as you grow.

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Marcy Axelrod, welcome to Your Next Success. I'm so, so excited and thrilled to be talking with you today. Caroline, believe me, the honor is all mine. I'm so thrilled to be with you, to learn from you, and I think what you're doing to help the world is phenomenal. People don't follow their passion. They don't know what the P word passion is for them. It, maybe we shouldn't even use that word. And, um, being authentic is just, um,

marcyaxelrod-1 2:37

I

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think how we're designed to live, and when we're, we don't live that way, the cost is absolutely enormous. Absolutely. Absolutely. I, have adored you since the moment I first, Mm-hmm ...you first came across my radar, and I'm just, you know, thrilled that you and I are having this conversation. So we're gonna get to all of the amazing work. You've got one of your amazing books kind of showing there, How We Choose to Show Up. We will get to that. We will get to you're an author of one, but not just one, but two books, two times TEDx speaker, a very renowned keynote speaker. You're also an artist with such amazing, Mm-hmm ...phenomenal art. So there are just so many multiple facets of who you are and how you impact and share your light into the world. We're gonna get to that. And I'd love to take it back to the beginning. Can you help us understand, you know, like, where were you born? What was life like for the very youngest Marcy? Yeah, the youngest Marcy. born in Baltimore, Maryland, but very quickly at age six, you know, my father was offered a new job in Boston, the family moves, and all of a sudden Marcy's world, you know, i- it just completely changes, like overnight. New school, new house, mom and dad doing different things, everyone busy, new patterns. Yeah, and that's when I started to stutter because I needed more attention,

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Mm.

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and I'm not one to act out, so my body kind of just made me ill and my throat locked and, um, that was the beginning of turning my entire self-lens outward. 'Cause I said to myself, "Hey, if I can't show up as I choose, I'm gonna just study how is everyone else showing up?" Interesting. Anyway, I can get To why it was so kind of painful to be me, 'cause, you know, the moment I raised my hand in class, everyone just let out this collective "Ugh," knowing Aw ...the teacher's gonna have to call on Marcy, and, you know, I learned a lot of phenomenal things from that. I didn't view it as, you know, I'm hurting them, they don't wanna be with me. What I viewed it as is they feel me. They're with me. They're in me. Somehow they're feeling my inside, and you know what? I'm feeling theirs. And that's when at the, you know, very, you know, embryonic age of six, I figured out we are truly interconnected. And I mean, now of course it's what Einstein says, it's what David Bohm says, it's what Oppenheimer... I, I mean, we know this from

marcyaxelrod-1 5:06

not

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just quantum physics, we know it from really basic physics, right? Yeah. Um, so the kind of points to draw out there when it comes to what to do with one's life, right? What contribution are we here to make? Seminal experiences like that, like, I mean, that defined everything in my life. Why do I speak about how we choose to show up? Why am I a speaker?

marcyaxelrod-1 5:32

Why

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Yeah, Yeah. Why do TED talks?

Caroline Sangal 5:35

Yeah.

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Talks when it's really crazy for others? I mean, it's because our calling is defined by the experiences that we have at these very early stages of life, and no one else has that same experience. So there's no competition for a given role or to do something. If you're just, just, just do what you're called to do, and we can get into some some practicalities later, but I hope that frames things a little bit differently for people than perhaps they've heard it before. That is so beautiful. And also, just even some of the wisdom and the experience that you had, because it's the experiences that happen to you, it's what you think about them, and then what you do from them that really helps us to all have our own impact, and and purpose, and things that we're living out of, of all the beauty that is meant to kind of come through us. Um, and that's amazing, because I've heard from other people in the past who've had different experiences with whatever their thing... whether it was a stutter, whether it was, you know, um, h- how they looked was a little bit different. Something was different, right? And reality is we're all different, and yet- their experience wasn't,

Caroline Sangal 6:55

Oh,

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they feel me. Oh, I'm connected," but or one of more of, "Oh, I'm not normal, so therefore I'm

Caroline Sangal 7:04

wrong, and therefore

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I

marcyaxelrod-1 7:06

must

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be

marcyaxelrod-1 7:06

fixed

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Right. And

marcyaxelrod-1 7:07

more

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like,

marcyaxelrod-1 7:08

oh

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they

Caroline Sangal 7:08

feel

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me.

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The... There's maybe a little bit of compassion here. H- How is this sh- showing up? That kind of became a bit of a through line. All right. Yeah, Yeah. Can Is, is it okay if I reflect on some of the phrasing that you just used and what you just pointed out? Yeah. You know, How we live in this world, okay, and I could say how we choose to show up, right, is, is a choice. You described a to me orientation that others have. You said things you know, people look at things that happen to them, so to them is victim mode. You have no control, you have no choice, and you're stuck. You can then move into, "But I'm gonna change it," you know, and I'm in by me mode. I'm in control, and I'm now on the treadmill, and I can become a VP, and I can change my career, and I can achieve all these things, and it's exhausting, and it's too individualistic, and it's too ego-based. And guess what? It's not the way to be. Somehow I at age six was in through me, and by the way, these are,

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uh,

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it's a framework that Peter Sage, you know, brought into, into my life. In through me, you're in the river, and you're not trying to change where it goes. That's by me. By me is saying, "If the river goes left, no, it can't go left, it's gotta go right. I'm gonna dig, I'm gonna dig, I'm gonna fill it in." No. No. The river of life is gonna flow, and it will deliver to us what we need, and the challenges that we have are to shape us into who we need to be to have the impact on the world that we're designed to have. And some people might say, in fact, some people dear to my heart, you know, "That's determinism, Marcy," and like, "How can you li-..." You know, it's a gift to be grateful and to see the good in everything that happens. You know, as you and I just talked about, you know, my daughter may end up, you know, later today being committed to an eating disorder cl- clinic where she lives for a while. I have a choice of crying my eyes out, "Oh, my God, how awful," or of saying, you know what? In the back of her mind was being a therapist. I bet this is gonna be an unbelievable, um, education, w- lived experience for her to kind of vet, you know, wow, I wanna help people with this, and now I have the unbelievable skill of living through it to help people with." Or maybe it won't be, you know, a career, if you will, or a calling, but one day, having lived through it, she's gonna just say the right thing to somebody at the right time based on this experience, and change the trajectory of their life. So how upset am I really supposed to be? This is through me. Mm.

marcyaxelrod-1 10:07

And And then, and then, you

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know, there's actually a level above it that we don't have to talk about when you're like the Zen Buddha and you're in as me, as, you know, as the life force, as the universe. But through me is kind of the, what I think we should be aspiring to. So that's what it was that I felt that's different than what these other people you're talking about may feel of they feel judged by, you know, the GOOP, the good opinion of other people, which is... no one actually feels judged. It's your ego who feels judged, so we can talk about that later if you want. Now, I'm curious though, where do you think that came from, your ability to, to experience, to be part of, of a, a greater, you know, society, to have that understanding and, and the compassion that others were feeling? H- how,

Audio Only - All Participants 10:55

how

Caroline Sangal 10:56

is it you have that poured

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into you and were able to ack- ack-

Caroline Sangal 10:59

acknowledge

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Well- and express it? Look, I mean, who, who, knows? I mean, my parents are physicians, so I mean, at the... w- The energy in the home was ca- was caring for others. The energy in the home is making the world a better place. The energy in the home was, you just do your thing and you're deeply committed. I, I mean, I don't know. Um- Yeah you know, if any of those really take root. But it was very much of an external lens, and the external world isn't there to judge you. The external world is there for you to support and contribute to. Interesting. Interesting. Maybe That was it. I've never I, I, I, haven't really reflected deeply on that, but maybe it, it was just the orientation. Yeah. Everyone's feeling me, and I actually, It pained me that I pained them. Oh. And I said to myself, you know, "You can't change this now. You know, at some point maybe, but you're stuck, um, and you need to turn your energy somewhere." Mm. Yeah, and that's when, you know, over time I figured out how were we designed to show up, to thrive? And did you have any siblings?

marcyaxelrod-1 12:13

Yes,

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I had one sibling. I, I have one sibling, yes. And outside of school, were there particular activities that you enjoyed more than others? Yeah, I was just a typical kid. I did soccer. I did softball. I was on the tennis team. Rode my bike to school and back. Went jogging every day starting at age 11 after my mother started to jog. Yeah. Oh. I mean, Yeah. And I was really joyful, but I definitely had, um, tremendous stress from the, from not being able to communicate verbally. And did, did you write instead or you kept speaking anyway? It was more just a combination of either not saying something or trying to say something, and coping with the humiliation and the stress, Mm-hmm and frying vocal cords and all sorts of things. And the massive sore throats, which I've had for 50 years. Oh wow. Um, Yeah, that's really what it was. But ultimately, you know, maybe that is what led me to, you know, also wanna write and write a number of books and things, is just how else can I communicate? So now I communicate through the visual arts, right? And I can walk around Yeah ...and show you some, some art. I was just I lo- I love, I love your art. Like, the, the glimpses that I saw, in the couple conversations leading up to this has- have been, um, fascinating. Well, yeah, I was at the Grand Palais in Paris, um, as part of the Salon Comparisons exhibit in February. I was just at Art Expo New York last weekend. I'll be in Venice, uh, probably in June with the art and Art Basel Miami. Here's just a small piece. Oh, yes, I love it. Oh, she's so pretty. And I love the colors that you have. I love the, g- the blues and the little bit of greens. It's,

marcyaxelrod-1 13:58

Another

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little... Yes.

marcyaxelrod-1 14:00

Another little small

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piece.

marcyaxelrod-1 14:03

Here's

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Here's a bigger piece, Oh. which you can't I love it ...See the purple Uh, But, but I think Yeah, in, at Art Basel Miami, there were some super huge pieces. But anyway, the point is the, like, people can choose to express themselves in endless ways, you know. Yes. And- Here's a huge one. Anyway. I love it. And also, we talked before, some of your art. I think it's epoxy-based resin. You allow it to start to partially cure, and then you move and manipulate it around as well. So it's like you're helping it become- Mm-hmm but, but yet you never really have this full-on, like, "Oh, I'm trying To make a piece this way." You allow it to kind of develop as you're creating it, and I just think the whole thing is, is just fascinating. Yeah, Yeah. I mean, it had me on multiple levels. So. That's actually a really great metaphor, um, for someone's professional progression, right? Because what you do if you're interested in something, what, what do you do? First, you look it up, and then you talk to people about it, and then you get really cur- curious. You start to ask more questions about it, and then maybe you call somebody and ask them to talk to you about how, how the day rolls in that sort of, um, of a profession, if it is a profession, or maybe it's just kind of something that's not labeled as a formal thing. Um, but that is something that you love, and you just slowly turn your whole life more toward that, Mm. And then of course, you meet more people do- doing it, and then you go to events for that type of thing, and then the opportunities start to show up. You don't need permission. You don't have to make this a big deal. You just, you just have an interest, and you take the small steps. Yes. And Then at the end of it, you have a stunning art piece, and you can call it 10 years of your life that you, that you de- dedicated to something you truly love. And guess what? When you truly love something, and the interest is really from your heart, you are making a unique contribution to whatever that space is.

Caroline Sangal 16:11

Yeah.

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Yeah. And it gives you energy, and your energy... And it, and it feels exciting, and it feels fulfilling, and it's like, "I could do this all the time. What? Oh, wait- Right. I might Get to get paid for this? What?" I'm just, I'm just doing what I love, so, um- Exactly, and these days, what people get paid for... I mean, who... Like, Yeah. I Just... My daughter just looked up uh, she found a bubble, a roving bubble truck, basically, and what this person is, person must have loved bubbles, and they bought a truck, and they made it this roving bubble truck, and it makes these, like, unbelievably massive 20 to 30-foot bubbles and Wow ...and you know, the person gets called and paid to go and bring their bubble truck to various events, be it, be it a corporate event, be it a party, be it a convention, be it whatever it is. That's exciting. That's exciting. And, and,

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and,

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yeah. Okay, So catch us up a little bit. All right, so you're six. You have this, um, realization. You've developed this stutter. You are still, uh, happy, joyful as much as you can be, enjoying the world, in- interacting with friends, different activities, riding your bike, all of those things. Um, and then what happens kind of into the teenage world? Like, then, then what happens with your experience? Yeah. Well, you know, first there was a summer when my parents brought me to this rehabilitation hospital, which was for elders recovering from strokes, but they had had this, like, experimental s- um, you know, support for stutterers, which was n- not helpful at all. It was just awful, I never used what I learned. Um, but what I saw there oriented me more toward understanding... uh, toward, toward, that question: How are humans designed to show up to thrive? And the reason it did that is because I saw these elders recovering from strokes. They had experts by their sides, on both sides, and these pages that the people would flip telling them exactly what to do. So you've got your, your blueprint of what to do. You've got your experts. You've got intent. You've got people who know how they want to show up. They have a lifetime of wisdom, and yet they struggled. And that's when... I mean, I'm watching this, and I'm like, look at that. This ought to be a layup.

marcyaxelrod-1 18:27

This

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ought to be a grand slam, like. And they were really struggling, and many of them lived there. And I mean, of course, it's through a 12-year-old's eyes,

marcyaxelrod-1 18:36

eyes,

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and that's when the question was, like, emblazed in my skull. Figure out the answer. How are humans designed to show up to thrive? So I mean, there's the whole industry of personal performance, but that's about, like, getting ahead. It felt too ego-driven, and that really repelled me, and that's when I discovered nature is the answer. We are nature. So most people misunderstand. They think we're in nature. No, we are of nature. We are nature. We don't really need a qualifier, in, of. Like, we are Yeah ...nature. We... Right? I mean, whether you b- b- believe we were... we started in the ocean and then crawled out somehow and then evolved through, a- the ape stage Yeah or from God, whatever it is, there's nature out there, and that's what led me on this path. That's what crystallized the question. And then, and I mean, people can really benefit from this next part, is just how are people showing up to money? So I mean, I, I, loved the stock market because that's human decision-making. The fascinating thing, on every side of a buyer, there's a seller. Yeah. Like, What? Who's making a decision to, to, to, do the selling when someone's do- Like, so I was really drawn to Wall Street 'cause it's real time. It's measurable. Interesting. It's intense. It deals with money. It's such a rich thing. Did really well on Wall Street because the questions that I asked were psychological question. W- How are people showing up to this and why? So all of my success is because of the deep interest in the psychology of how is someone choosing, how and why is someone choosing to show up a certain way? Mm. That led to man- strategy management consulting. So instead of betting on whether a stock's gonna go up and down, I said to myself, Well, who's making the decisions in the company that lead to estimated earnings?" Which is what drives the stock most of the time, right? Um, so then, yeah, almost 20 years of strategy management consulting with, with KPMG. And noticed in these positions, I need to speak fluently. I was choosing things where if you can't speak, like, they're not gonna want you on the team. I was one-on-one telling executives of $100 billion firms what to do because of research Interesting my global team did that I led. So you gotta be able to speak fluently to do that, and I purposely, I think, sought roles like that kind of to prove And- ...to myself that... And

Caroline Sangal 21:12

and so

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t- tell us a little deeper on the journey of how did you go from Marcy who had a stutter to Marcy who is extremely articulate and telling decision-makers that have huge, huge, huge impacts, not just on their own lives, but everyone's. h- h- how, how did that unfold? Because the, the experience with the elders at, you know, in t- age 12 or 13 or whatever that was, opened your eyes even more to like there's something else going on here. But then where, where did you unlock it a little bit for yourself as far as trying to overcome that thing that Yeah was muffling your voice? Right. W- well,

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uh,

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staccatoing my voice, I guess. Okay. Um, z- once I was out of the house, I think subconsciously I didn't need the stutter. I didn't need mom and dad to see me and be there for me emotionally. I was an adult. I grew out of it, and it took me until, I think, two years ago when there was a therapist I was interviewing for my daughter, and she said to me, "You didn't need the stuttering." I was like, "What? Mm. "You didn't need it." I always thought I kind of grew out of it, and thank God, and, and, she said, "No. It was there. w- You developed it because you needed it. You were... It was a call for help." I never got the attention that I needed from it, so it, it persisted. Anyway, Yes. but I'll tell you for your audience, um, choosing a, like, what to pursue, when I was interviewing for roles, um, from, from, Cornell, and I was, I was, um, hired straight from Cornell into Lehman Brothers based on a discussion that I'd had with someone at an event. And I, I, I believe I've always showed up a little differently because my entire lens is why are people choosing to do this? And if you hire me for role XYZ, here's the perspective that I'm gonna bring, and therefore here's the type of questions that I'm gonna ask. And based on that, you know, sure, I can look at it in kind of a standard way too. If you have a process, great. Happy, happy to do that. But here's, here's also the novel value that I'm gonna provide based on how I'm wired, and it led to great success on Wall Street and, um, and, um, in the strategy group at KPMG Consulting. Wow. So that's how that happened. And the- Now how did you even dec- decide you were going to college to even start-- st- When did that Wall Street fascination come, come alive? Was it in high school? Was it while you were in college? Was it-- w- uh,

Caroline Sangal 23:51

uh,

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w-

Caroline Sangal 23:52

h-

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when? Yeah, especially considering no one in my How, how and when and what? Yeah. Right. I mean, my physician parents were physicians. They weren't physicians who also talked about finance or in- Did they invest? Like, did, Were you aware if there was... Oh, different Background. Yeah. You know, I, I was just... How did that fascination come? Interesting. Um, I don't know. It might have been my grandmother who one day opened up the Wall Street Jour- Journal at the table and folded it and folded it and folded it so we could see, like, a little column of the stock charts and, Yeah and she said, "Look at this high, low, close." But, no, I mean, decision-making is really... I mean, right? Yeah. And by, by the way, choices and decisions are different, and we should, we should distinguish now that I've used, used the word dec- Let's do That. Yep. If you picture a funnel, the decision is at the bottom.

marcyaxelrod-1 24:43

The,

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the de- decision closes everything down, and now you have one thing, and to me you're kind of... It feels risky, and it feels, like, kind of stuck. Um, choices are the top of the funnel.

marcyaxelrod-1 24:58

The

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choice is I could do this or I could do this or I could do this. It feels open. It flows. This is the aliveness of life. That's choice. Choice is freeing. It's freedom. Choice is the flowing through me, right? Mm-hmm.

marcyaxelrod-1 25:13

So

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yeah, but I mean, for, for others trying to figure out what lights them up, I mean, you gotta relax. Number one, you have to relax. Learn how to meditate, Keep, keep a journal, start to take walks without your... without listening to a podcast. Look at nature. Once you're relaxed, you'll notice you turn toward something. Something will catch your eye. It can be anything. It can be a headline. It can be a book. You know, go to the bookstore, look around. What intrigues you? What books do you pick up? You know? What memories from chi- from childhood are things that just It was like one of the happiest moments of your life. Like, what did you used to do? And then dive back into that. You don't worry about how. This is a big thing that keeps people stuck. How is this gonna lead to anything? I don't know how it's gonna wor- I, there's a big gap between here and there. Like, how is this gonna happen? The nonlinear, totally unpredictable path is never gonna be known by you until you take one step at a time.

Caroline Sangal 26:20

Yes. Yes.

Gallery View 26:23

Yes. Yeah, I'm huge into like when you can finally get to a little bit of a point of you know where you are, and you have an idea of where you might want to go, okay, now you could, you could get a massive action plan, you could get a map, but really just start taking one thing, one little step forward, another little step forward, and view it all as an experiment of, "I'm gonna see how this goes. I'm gonna see if I like it, if I don't, and I can always change." And, and even as I'm trying to help people, you know, design a life that they love and find out how their career can fuel that, but it's always in the view of it's a draft. We're gonna make a draft of a vision of your life and a draft of a vision of your career, because if you say, "Make the vision of your-- for your life, Marcy," it's like, "Ugh," Yeah. that feels a little bit confining. Well, Well, if you say make the vi- If you- But if it's the draft, it's the, it's maybe it's the choices versus the decision. Yeah, yeah. a draft, Yeah is a starting point. The, the actual path is gonna show up at an unexpected time, in an unexpected way, from the least expected people, places, things, moment. Really quick sto- story. At this last art show, I had a bunch of pieces that I wasn't that excited about 'cause at the last minute they said, "Oh, give us something black." So I like Anyway, turns out these black and white pieces, um, were of interest to a dear friend of mine two years ago. I love these- Oh ...these these pieces. They didn't sell at the show. So I call her, and I say, "I'm driving by your place. I've got these three pieces in the car. Let me just come and, and bring them." Okay, $12,000 worth of art, and I just gave it to her. And she said to me, We, we ha- we have to whisper. My son is in the last five minutes of his chess lesson, and his chess coach is here. Just, just for five minutes." I went, "Okay, great." Walk in,

Audio Only - All Participants 28:15

th-

Gallery View 28:15

um, chess lesson is over, and he looks up, and he's like, I just saw those pieces at Art Expo. I was just there." And he was so thrilled to meet the artist, and he said, "Can I have your card?" And I'm like, "Of course."

marcyaxelrod-1 28:31

He,

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He, he leaves, and she turns to me and she says, "Oh my God. I didn't think to tell you. For the three years that we've known him, he is such an art fanatic. He goes to all the shows, all the museums. You know, my son and I are getting invitations from him all the time about let's go to this and go to that." So one day... So of course I'm gonna call. Who knows if he'll buy stuff, but it doesn't matter, because now he will have met me, he's gonna mention me. This is how it happens. Never forget this. And the thing is, you can't write the recipe that's gonna get it right. right. You've gotta just be in the great mood knowing magic is happening for you right now, because that abundance is what brings it into life. It goes from the wave into the particle, and it shows up in the, in the real world, if you will, Yeah. but you have to feel it and believe it first. And, and allowing yourself to just be open for the opportunities, right? Right. And so you're at the art show, you have these pieces of art, you weren't necessarily that enthus- and they're like, "Oh, let me go take them to somebody who I think will a- at least appreciate them, and I appreciate her." so Right a- all of those led to the, for everything, again, working for you- Right, right Cause that the right person was there at the right time and oh, wow, that's, amazing. Yeah. Well, a, a, a stepping stone. I don't know if it's the right person, but notice also it sh- like, my generosity, that energy of my giving, Yeah ...my choice... And driving over, I was thinking, I, I... Cause I know other artists who look at me and what I do, 'cause I I gift a lot to raise money for causes. I gift art s-

marcyaxelrod-1 30:14

s- specifically.

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Um, and they say, "Why are you doing that?" Because a collector would be angry. I'm like, "This is my heart." Like, it's abs- like, this piece needs to go to someone who showed up at the annual fundraiser for, you know, trafficked women and men on the planet, which I just did couple months ago. This is where this piece needs to go. It's, you know, it's not about me. Like, once again, it's the mirror turned outward. Yeah. It's not about us. The world is waiting for us to show up authentically, and it rewards it. Now, where did art start becoming part of your person? My communication if you will, right? Um, I, I really always created art. I didn't start to sell it until recently, like the last couple years.

Audio Only - All Participants 31:46

And-

Caroline Sangal 31:47

So

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w- So as a kid you were doing art? And what kind of art was it? I was creating art. I was doing, I was doing really fascinating line drawings where, Mm where, where a bunch of lines started in separate spots and came together,

marcyaxelrod-1 32:00

and

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then I would do like, the mirror image of that, and then they would get That's awesome more complicated and more three-dimensional. That... It was all And- ...about relationality. Everything is related to everything else. Everything. So in high school, did you also do art? Did you continue to take art related classes beyond when you had to? Never studied art? Or was this always a side thing?

marcyaxelrod-1 32:24

No,

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I've never studied art. I mean, I, I think it's really It's really a creation that's, like, in my being. And everybody has their art. You know, I, I wanna make sure that everyone listening has a very broad ear on this, if you will. I want you to hear this in a very broad way. Everyone has their own art, and whether it is physical art or singing or how they connect one friend to another or anything, you know, how they do anything, honor it. You know, develop it. It is uniquely you. It'll help you feel whole. It'll help you flow more. Um, and, you know, the world may want it. You never know. You know, back to the bubble van.

Caroline Sangal 33:14

Ex-

Gallery View 33:15

Yeah. I Mean, how f- how fast... I mean, how many people listening wanna go find and or make some bubbles? I kinda do. I, actually carry bubbles with me everywhere, but I don't... My purse is downstairs but I do- have these little vials of bubbles. That's awesome. All right, so then how did you go from

Caroline Sangal 33:35

Marcy

Gallery View 33:36

working, with really great consulting groups in influencing, informing leaders to then at one point branching out on your own? How did you go from how and what what led to that decision? Because by all intents and purposes, someone from the outside could have looked in and been like, "Wow, look at how successful and amazing Marcy is." It's different. And yet Somewhere there was more for you. Yeah. Yeah, I mean, you know, the great thing about cell phones instead of, like, office lines, right, is that when the client needs something, they call you, and if you're not with the firm anymore, you can sell them a piece of work anyway. So that's what I did. I left K- KPMG Consulting, and the same clients just called me, and I said, "I'm gonna put together an all-star team for you of the people I've worked with who have left the firm before me or their friends who they've worked with or other..." Right? "And we will get done, um, the same quality of work at, you know, a lesser cost because I know you're now entrusting me without the brand name behind me." I wrote the book to get the ideas out there. Yeah. And whatever way does that,

marcyaxelrod-1 34:47

do

Gallery View 34:47

podcasts do it,

marcyaxelrod-1 34:49

if

Gallery View 34:50

speeches do it, if how I show up to the art shows do it, you know, it doesn't matter if people buy the book.

Caroline Sangal 35:00

Interesting.

Gallery View 35:02

So did you leave that big corporate before you started your own? Did you leave by choice or by force? Like, you just one day woke up and was like- Oh ...Oh. I don't, I don't know that I wanna do this anymore." Right. Or sometimes they have waves of changes. Right, right. No, there was, there was a combination. What, what was your lane? Yeah. Yeah. No, there was a combination of both. Um, you know, 2008 happened. I was not part of the layoffs there. Um, but then I, I w- I was trying to have my second child, and I wanted to travel less. And once she was born, I wanted to be with her for at least a few months, Yeah. And Not be stressed. So it was, it was kind of like a good timing thing because I had, I had basically told them, um, you know, I'm trying to have another kid. Um, I don't wanna do this. I don't wanna do that, right? So I kind of Yeah, yeah ...I had kind of narrowed my, my lane for them in a very clear way, and they had told me, you know, uh,

marcyaxelrod-1 35:57

uh,

Gallery View 35:58

the role is this, so if you're only gonna do a part of it this doesn't make a lot of sense. Um, yeah, so I mean, it was, it was just kind of a uh, a, a mutual, um, parting. A

Caroline Sangal 36:10

Combination of events allowed you

Gallery View 36:11

that freedom to show up in the way that you wanted Right ...for your new family member, Right. and also expand your impact in a different way than you had before. Yeah. Yeah. And then what I did is I accepted consulting sporadically here and there.

marcyaxelrod-1 36:27

Um,

Gallery View 36:28

but I mean, when you're doing a project like that that's at the executive level, and I... You know, I was always asked to s- present directly to the board because Yeah. the way I did the work, I was always beating McKinsey when... And they were always telling me that I beat McKinsey, um, to to earn the work, even though I was more expensive in some cases. Anyway, um, you know, y- there's nothing else that you're doing. You know, they own you. The travel is whenever they say, "Oh, hey. We need you to join this meeting over here in Dallas." Okay. Yeah. So yeah. So I was doing things here, here and there, but it really, um, had the luxury of not needing to get pulled back in or s- really search for something. And so then you wrote your first book Own Your Game, Mm-hmm. And, And, then what happened after that started to, you know. I love writing. you Know...

marcyaxelrod-1 37:23

I

Gallery View 37:23

mean, that is my happy place. St- study things and write. Study things and write. It's absolutely my happy place. Um, from a career point of view though, I mean, can't... Like, e- s- being in the house all by myself all day, not, not a fit. Not a fit. So, like, there are definitely some environmental

marcyaxelrod-1 37:41

contextual

Gallery View 37:41

things to consider about, um, how to do what you wanna do in a way that also, um, Yep supports the rest of you. You know? It's not isolating. Yeah. Um. Yeah, I'll say that's your personal style, so that can be, have elements of are you an introvert or an extrovert? Are you a generalist or a specialist? How do you communicate? And what's, g- what is allowing you to have energy, and what's taking some energy away? So although I'm very much Yeah ...an extrovert, I love interacting with people, there are times when I have to just kinda

Caroline Sangal 38:18

own it

Gallery View 38:19

and focus here in my office without anyone, even though I love the connections of people, but there's kind of that it's a both/and, uh, world. Right. Right. And then, and then there's speaking. I mean, even when the book isn't done yet, you can start to speak to groups. Just offer anywhere and anywhere. Any bookstore, any, you know, church, mosque, syn- synagogue. "Hey, can i, can I give a speech? My book is coming out next year." You know? Um, and you just start to talk about it because then you get feedback. Mm. Right? And say, "Look," you know, I'm considering..." ta- ...Like, here's the concept. Like, is it easier for you to understand if I say it this way or say it this way, right? So involve,

marcyaxelrod-1 39:03

involve

Gallery View 39:03

your customer in your design process, if you will. Yeah. And then, and then what happened? So you have one book under, you know, out in the world. You have started having more and more speaking engagements. You still have this

Caroline Sangal 39:18

consulting every now and

marcyaxelrod-1 39:19

then.

Gallery View 39:19

Yeah. And then how did that lead to ev- inevitably book number two, two TED Talks, et cetera? Yeah. Like, how, how did that all go down? Well, I do research. Back in 1999, I I did my first global study of, of,

Audio Only - All Participants 39:33

of, um,

Gallery View 39:34

how people choose to show up. It was actually part of a paid engagement for a corporate client. But I always ask psychological questions underlying their kind of ostensible, their, t- their high level, their, their top level topic. So then I did my own research on it, and it, the, I mean, it just, it just had to get out there. So yeah, that's when I wrote the second book, started doing more speaking, and that's me today. I should probably do more writing of, like, short form, a paragraph here and there, and put it out on LinkedIn. Uh, I really haven't been doing that, and I probably should 'cause I love writing. But yeah, so now I just do, um, you know, paid speaking, free speaking, um- And art shows. And at the art shows, I really g- I rarely give out an art card. I give out my Choose to Show Up card, which looks just like the book cover. awesome. Yeah. Yeah, that's awesome. That's so awesome. So tell us a little bit, um, what does it mean? How do we choose to show up? How can someone who's not never considered that

Caroline Sangal 40:39

yet

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before

Caroline Sangal 40:41

begin

Gallery View 40:41

to

Caroline Sangal 40:42

consider that. Like, wait, what?

Gallery View 40:44

Choice? Show up? Yeah. What? Um, yeah, There's really no definition out there of showing up. People throw around the, the phrase as a co- colloquial thing. But, um, everybody has a slightly different understanding of it. So for some people, it's, you know, you walk into a room, you're physically there. For others, it's, you know, your absolute best. Anyway, what I did is I put three levels on it, right? I mean, we all know, um, that there are inherent quality levels in everything. Some version of high, medium, low. Okay. So I put a high, medium, low on it. Where did I don't know where I put mine. Here. High, medium, low. Yeah. Low, level one, barely there. Level two, which is the real trouble spot for most of us, just showing up. And then level three, truly showing up. There's a lot behind this. I explain it psychologically, based on neuroscience, based on behavioral economics, based on emotion, based on felt experience in your body, based on behavior. I I explain And I explain what it's like to move up. So I mean And I explain that we're in three roles, not one. I mean, let's just talk about just showing up, 'cause that's the trouble spot.

Caroline Sangal 41:54

Yeah.

marcyaxelrod-1 41:54

My

Gallery View 41:55

research shows 80% of us are just showing up. This is the human doing. It's the,

Speaker View 42:02

um,

Gallery View 42:02

life is like habitual pa- patterns. It's, it's kind of the sleepwalking through life thing. That's just showing So 80% of us just show up 80% of the time. Mm. This is what leads you to look back and look at the last decade of your life and saying, "How did I end up here? Not happy. This is not what I want. Not fulfilled. I can't do this another day. This is dragging me. Like, I can't Like, I'm searching for ways to just get by." Like, no. What just showing up is, it's a very, um, automated, left hemispheric offen- ac- activity where we're not fully present. We're not experiencing really anything new. The alarm goes off, you get up, you brush your teeth, you do this, you get the kids out the door, da, da, da. da. And things are mechanistic, and they don't feel meaningful. New ideas don't come. There's, there's no joy. Um, and we're basically in a, like, control over mode. And this is because we have two hemispheres of our brain, right? One, because we had to eat, grab, get, control, power over, compliance, lack of trust, really bad leadership and management. And we have, like, you've gotta eat, but you've gotta not be eaten, right? So that's the broad perspective of, like, oh my God, look at that sunset. Or look at the single drop. And

Speaker View 43:26

And your

marcyaxelrod-1 43:27

whole

Gallery View 43:28

body is merged into the flow of what is. Mm. This literally heals us. The pain goes away. This is when you look at your child and you're like, "Just that they exist." You know, the socks on the floor don't come into it anymore.

Caroline Sangal 43:50

Yeah.

Gallery View 43:50

This is when your child feels truly accepted by you, and this is when your relationship is one of beauty and flow and resonant and intercon- connectedness. And even at age 10 or whatever it is, maybe they'll crawl into your lap, you know? And this is when, even when you're in a rush, you're gonna say, "Jenny, take your time. I know you can tie your shoes if you want to. Just take your time. It's okay." In- instead of, "Let me do that for you right now, we've gotta go," Yeah. which is

Speaker View 44:26

shutting

Gallery View 44:26

her down. She's got a message, like don't bother. Like, and then you look back and you're like, "How did I end up with a kid who's anxious, you know, who's looking for approval from others?" These are lifelong issues, so being more in our right hemisphere in the truly show up mode is really important. Um, and I can explain how to get there, but there's, there's, there's much more to this. I will just add one, one more thing and then, and then we can kind of move on. I don't know if I have the chart. And I'll send you some of these slides. So there's a much Yes ...bigger picture. You know, red's on the outside, it's the barely there. green's in the, uh, in the middle, that's truly show up. But here's what happens as you tr- as you move up the continuum, okay? You move from not really noticing what's going on, like it's a self-focused, it's ego-driven. people judge you, you're triggered all the time. What does that person think of me? that, you know, I can't seem to g- you know, ingratiate myself to the, to the boss. I'm not really achieving my goals the way I want, right? That's being in just yourself mode. It's a self focus, and as you are able to shift, and I can explain how to shift later. As you're able to shift into,

marcyaxelrod-1 45:44

up

Gallery View 45:45

the continuum, you start to notice. This is when, once again, how the trees are moving or someone across the office and you think about, "Wasn't their kid sick last week? Let me go ask about that." Right? You start to notice. And then as you move up, you tune in. And then you feel with, with the pers- Mm. with the idea, with the moment in the sun. Whatever it is, you feel with. And then the Holy Grail, you enact care. This can look like a lot of things, Enacting care can be for a person, for yourself, um, a way to, um, uh, participate in a community event. It can be Enacting care can, can be something that, that as a lived experience helps you figure out, "That's what I'm gonna go spend my time doing," not just right now, but long term. That's it, Yeah.

marcyaxelrod-1 46:49

So

Gallery View 46:50

notice, tune in, feel with, enact care. That's what happens. Your entire life shifts as you move from, uh, level one into two, into three. Your entire life. And how do you suggest somebody start to learn how to shift? Being aware that you can shift is a foundational

Audio Only - All Participants 47:11

thing.

Gallery View 47:11

Right. Knowing here's where I need to go, I can go one, two, three, four, and then

Caroline Sangal 47:16

then

Gallery View 47:16

what? Yeah.

marcyaxelrod-1 47:18

Um, Once you're

Gallery View 47:19

in

Speaker View 47:19

three,

Gallery View 47:19

you're

marcyaxelrod-1 47:20

already

Gallery View 47:20

there. Your life is what you want. This is when you lay in bed and you just say thank you, and the gratitude has enveloped you. Um, so how can people learn? First, I mean, it's, it's... A lot's in the book, but there are really two main parts. I mean, one is that you have to live more fully in your body, and you need to orient yourself toward life in a truly show up way. So what do you believe about the universe? This is a question that Einstein asked. Do you fundamentally believe that this is a dog eat dog, zero sum game, competitive world, or is this an abundant world? What do you believe? So you've gotta figure out where you are and then, and then shift, and the beliefs are in here. For example, life is reciprocal. There's a mutuality that exists among everything. The trees give the oxygen. We breathe it in. We give them the CO2, right?

marcyaxelrod-1 48:16

It's endless,

Gallery View 48:17

right? There's a mutuality. There's a reciprocity. There is an abundance, and the beliefs, um, have to be present for you to tr- be able to, uh, sustain being in level three as much as probably most people want. Mm. But I mean, we're bouncing all around it every day. This, this isn't a you're here, you're there. It's like, no, for, for 10 minutes you're here. And then you're here for an hour. You know, Yeah Over vacation maybe you got, like, a lot of really connected moments 'cause you got the two days to relax before

marcyaxelrod-1 48:51

You

Gallery View 48:51

know, but w- which makes it a permission system, which is huge. This is once again getting you from by me to through me, 'cause everyone has permission to flow wherever they are on the continuum all day long because that's what it is. That's what life is. Yeah. And I like that it also, i- it, gave, you know, me starting to be a little bit more immersed into this world of showing up than a couple months ago or weeks ago. I don't even know, they all flow together. But we were res- we were supposed to record this earlier, and then there were things in my life that I, I could not control. I just had to kind of succumb to some of the things that were, and I was then able to just reach out and be like, "I'm not able to do that. I am just barely showing up, and that's just where I am, and I don't believe we can record our... at our originally scheduled time the way that I want it to be done." And so I just had to kind of reach out and had a little bit of more of and I, I don't even know if prior to looking at the showing up kind of methodology, if I would've been able to articulate that. I was like, "I'm just kinda ugh, and I don't necessarily know why." But it was more like, "Hey

Caroline Sangal 50:07

Ah,

Gallery View 50:07

the reality is I'm just, just barely there." Like, I don't even know if I'm at a one. I'm at a pre-- I'm at a pre-zero... I'm at a negative number and that's not what I wanted. And I... As much as I wanted to be able to be differently, I had to kind of accept where I was in that moment and allow that too to, pass, to then get to kind of the other side. So thank you for that, uh, not just the framework, not just the idea of it, but the ability to then apply that to my own life. Sadly, I wasn't trying to postpone our episode, but I needed to do that. I needed to do that in that moment, so thank you for that. Oh, absolutely. Everyone has permission to show up who they are, where they are, when they are. Yeah, absolutely. Was there anything else based on... Like, I don't know how deeply you delved into the book given what's been going on, but was there anything that you found helpful that you wanna bring up? I like all of that. I liked your, um, the alltelligence kind of thing. Or, can you explain that a little bit more to everyone? Yeah. So- Is

Caroline Sangal 51:12

That That was a

marcyaxelrod-1 51:13

so...

Gallery View 51:13

That

Caroline Sangal 51:13

that was a

Gallery View 51:14

that was a new word, a new concept, a new thing that I hadn't yet thought of previous to reading your book. Yeah, so alltelligence,

Caroline Sangal 51:23

Yeah,

Gallery View 51:23

alltelligence. All alltelligence

Speaker View 51:26

is, um, interconnected with intent to serve. What do I mean by that? Feeling that you're in the flow and kind of w- with and part of everyone and everything, so there's no us and them. There's no othering. So then there's no-- What that flows into is there's no judging, um, so people feel an open-hearted g- presencing from you, and then you can give, and you're giving the most precious thing, which is how you attend. You know? It's, it's your, f- your focus on them in an open-hearted way. So that's what it is, then you're serving the world. Um, let me explain though. That's just one word of, of quite a few because, you know, as humans moved out of nature into the cities, and we left doing jobs that were kind of our inheritance through our ancestors, and as we moved into doing jobs that are cubicles and kind of not meaningful, our lexicon shift from through me to by me, our whole lexicon of getting stuff done and hitting keys and a lot of the words are... w- You know, we, we think that it's great to kind of kill it, like the violence. Anyway, so there's a show up lexicon, right? Things, things aren't, um, done to you, they're done with you and for you. Being intelligent doesn't make any sense because the skills and knowledge that we need to be who we're designed to be, they're not just inside of us. Mm. They're, they're in everything that is. They're in everything that we relate to. They're in how we flow. They're, they're, they're in what we're responding to, right? Because if you picture that infinity sign, that Möbius strip, Yeah ...that flow ...is always going on, right? I'm responding to you, responding to me, responding to you, Right? On and on and on. And the way that I showed up was based on an interaction with my daughter and the, in- like, you know, the room I'm in, the heat, the sun, everything. So the skill level that we show up with, there's, there's no intelligence that makes sense. There's also no outelligence that makes sense. Like, all the skills and

marcyaxelrod-1 53:40

knowledge,

Speaker View 53:41

it's not in all the books out there, and the podcasts and all this crap. No. It's in allness, right? Another word is mui. This is, um,

Gallery View 53:50

a

marcyaxelrod-1 53:50

word from Dr. Dan Siegel, who created the field of interpersonal neurobiology. So it's me and mwe. Me and we. So it's M-W-E. He actually wrote a na- wrote a book with mwe on the cover about how interconnected we are. And I have a lot of neuroscience In the book that talks about how when you and I look in in each other's eyes, y- our brainwaves start to do this. They start to resonate as a single wave between us, right? I have a l- And what that means is that the mind is this collective space. We are sharing an experience and, uh,

Gallery View 54:31

you know...

marcyaxelrod-1 54:32

Anyway, I have lots of examples. D- um,

Speaker View 54:34

Dacher Keltner at the Greater Good Science Center, um, did this great study where, you know, a velvet curtain was in front of someone, another person just had their forearm out, and person one just did a two-finger touch for literally one second to the person's forearm who they couldn't see. Yeah. No words spoken, nothing, but what's, what was happening is the transmission of an emotion So I decide to feel gratitude, and I touch your arm, and then you are asked, "What was the emotion?" Crazy, 68% accuracy to the word, to the word. Wow. The words weren't happy, sad, mad, glad. It, it was nostalgia. I mean, it was these, these rich compote mixtures, right? Curiosity. I, I mean, the likelihood of guessing right was 8%, okay? 68%, so almost 70% of the time through a one-second touch from a stranger, you know what someone... y- You know the emotion that that person is experiencing. So anyway, there are endless examples that we're not separate. Of course, my experience in sixth grade where everybody was, "Ugh," that's... right? So the concept of

Gallery View 55:59

alltelligence

Audio Only - All Participants 56:00

intelligence

Speaker View 56:01

effectively helps to feel intertwined like leaves on a tree with everyone at all times so that, you know, now you're no longer irked. You no longer feel that you need someone's judgment to be favorable, um, all of this crap, Yeah. and you're free. You're free to pursue who you're designed to be. Mm, I love it. I love it so much. I forgot to ask you, back, way back, back in the day, when you were really little, did-- Was there a certain viewpoint that you had of this is what it means to be successful? Oh, I think- from that young age? I think- I, So I'd kind of Like to know a both/and. Both what was it? Yeah. and now What is it? Yeah, it stayed the same, believe it or not. I, mean, you know, I'm sure that without really recognizing it, at least maintaining the standard of living that, that I was born into, you know, some kind of upper middle class, um, home. Um, the ability, I don't know, once a month to go out to dinner, which we did. You know, we didn't have fancy cars, but, you know, every five or 10 years, we had a new car. Yeah, so I'm sure it was some version of basic stuff, but beyond that, free- um, owning my time. Success is owning my time, and I own my time, and it absolutely made me a saver. I'm like, I don't need a Starbucks every day. If I do one in five years, I'm good. Yeah. You know? I, I figured out what does owning my time means. It means I live below my means. It means that at some point I'm my fr- either I'm my own boss or I'm an owner, I'm a co-partner owner of something. Anyway, that's it. I love it. I love it. How do people find you? How do they have you speak? How do they... I mean, you could get your book on Amazon, I know, I got it. but how, how do they... How do you help people now? What are the ways that you love spending your time aside from the art and the creative things of that way? But share, share a little bit about that Uh, sure. I mean, I'm easy to find. Um, my website, Choosetoshowup.com. There's a contact page. I love hearing from people. I wanna hear what resonated, I wanna hear what was confusing, what didn't resonate, what questions I left unanswered. Um, beyond the contact page, I think there's over 50 or 70 podcasts out there. I think I'm on track to do 100 this, this year. Wow.

marcyaxelrod-1 58:26

Yeah.

Speaker View 58:26

That's awesome. Yeah, It... Yeah, Marcy@choosetoshowup.com is Love it. Thank you so much, Marcy, for sharing a bit more of your story, for helping, um, give a bit of an insight into how we choose to show up. I highly recommend anyone who's hearing this, please check out her books, check out her TED Talks.

Caroline Sangal 58:46

Just,

Speaker View 58:47

you know, become immersed a bit in the world of, of Marcy, and then perhaps someday you could even get some of her fabulous art. So thank you so much, Marcy, for being part of Your Next Success. Thank you so much. I really hope this was helpful to people. I know that a lot of people feel like the practicalities of life, you can't, you know, they can't leave their paycheck to go and, and do something, and it's just... I'm sure you've coached them on what to do there. Slowly just open, open themselves to uh, spend five minutes doing more of something, 10 minutes meet someone who's doing it. Just the, the slow progression. Yes. And see if you can do it even within your existing, within your existing paycheck. How can you, within that firm, whatever they're doing, um, let you come alive in these ways that are more true to your soul? Love it. Thank you again. I appreciate all of your time, all of your wisdom.

marcyaxelrod-1 59:45

Thank

Speaker View 59:46

you.

Speaker 3 59:47

Marcy, thank you for sharing your story. I genuinely appreciate you helping everyone understand how they show up.

Speaker 59:55

Thanks for listening to Your Next Success with Dr. Caroline Sangal. Remember, authentic success is yours to define and includes aligning your career to support the life you want.