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Some decisions pay you fast. Other decisions protect your future. Mike Barefoot served more than 27 years in staffing, placing over a thousand professionals and learn something. Most people never get to see the real cost of a yes. This is the Your Next Success podcast, and I am your host, Dr. Caroline Sangal. I am a life first career coach and strategist on a mission to normalize questioning your career because I believe each of us is made on purpose for a purpose only we can fulfill. The longer we live out of alignment with who we are, what we do best, and why we are here, the more we miss out and the more the world misses out on what only we can give the Your Next Success Podcast is where we explore how to build a career that truly fuels your life. We talk about self-discovery, smart job, search strategies, professional growth. And you will hear stories from people who have navigated big career transitions themselves. So you can create a life, first career and become your own version of authentic success, one that is aligned, meaningful, and truly yours. My guest today is Mike Barefoot. Mike is a longtime staffing and recruiting leader, turn speaker, who helps professionals and organizations grow with clarity, discipline, and purpose. After over 27 years in the staffing industry, including building over 50 million in revenue and placing more than 1000 professionals primarily in IT, Mike now shares real world lessons from the hiring side of the table. Judgment. Integrity and long-term thinking. He's also been recognized with Top Performance Honors, featured over 50 times as an industry expert and entrepreneur, and he brings decades of martial arts discipline into everything he teaches, including 37 years of training and multiple black belts. Mike's story has a pattern Adapt. Commit. Repeat. His story includes family change, adapting fast, learning discipline through repetition, and it shaped how he made decisions later, when to walk away, when to hold the line, and how to choose integrity over impulse. Basketball became his reset button working the same motions again and again. Later when that chapter ended, he found the same structure in martial arts. That repetition shaped the way he moved through career decisions too. How he built successes, how he handled pressure, why he turned down paths that looked impressive, and why he cared more about outcomes than quick wins. This conversation is about hiring decisions. Yes, it's also about the personal formation behind those decisions, discipline, integrity, and playing the long game. In this episode, you'll hear what over 27 years in staffing taught him about people, judgment and consequences, why he turned down promotions, turned down fees, and chose autonomy over approval. How his definition of success evolved from performance and recognition to relationships, health and peace, and why integrity became a business strategy and a personal standard.

Caroline 3:31

Welcome Mike Barefoot to Your Next Success. I'm super looking forward to this conversation today.

Mikeb 3:37

Well, thank you for having me. It's, uh, you know, we've gotten to know each other over the last month or so, and it's, it's a

Caroline 3:44

I.

Mikeb 3:44

honor and, and I've just enjoyed the conversations we've had, so not a big stretch for me and I really appreciate you giving me a platform.

Caroline 3:51

Absolutely. let's put this conversation out to the world and yeah, Mike and I, we got to meet at a, National Speaker Association, North Carolina chapter meeting. They have in-person meetups near RTP in North Carolina every second Saturday of the month. So it was awesome to meet you there and then to realize we've had a little bit of similarity in the, in the kind of things that we've worked on. Yeah. Yeah. So it's, it's, and, and this new world of, uh, you know, both of us. As we'll get into both of us had some similarities in a, in a bit of the things we focused on in our career, and now we're wanting to make even bigger impact and really help on a larger scale. So podcasts are helping to do that. Speaking is helping to do that. And so I'm happy to do what I can, so we can, help each other and really just get the word out there so people start to love their lives, love the things that they can do, and, utilize the things that we've both done in our careers for their benefit.

Mikeb 4:49

Absolutely. I think, us being both philanthropic and, um, altruistic in terms of our approaches. I think when you give more, you receive more.

Caroline 4:59

Yes,

Mikeb 4:59

to ideas, you receive more

Caroline 5:01

I.

Mikeb 5:01

So we've been pinging stuff and spitballing ideas off each other, uh, from different approaches, and I've really thought about things I had not thought about before. So I think it goes even beyond what I've done it, it's going into where I want to go, and we're both giving approaches and ideas. And the more you're open to hearing other people, the more your world expands, I believe, you know?

Caroline 5:25

Yeah. Well, let's get back to back, back, back in the day.

Mikeb 5:30

Okay.

Caroline 5:30

tell us about, where were you born? Where did you grow up? What were the beginning years of your life like?

Mikeb 5:39

Um, oh, geez. Uh. I was born in Fayetteville. my dad was from a rural area named Dunn, North Carolina, which was in between Raleigh and, and Fayetteville. It's, uh, exactly almost a halfway mark. Uh, he met my mom in Fayetteville. He served in the Army and was, uh, when they had a draft and went to Vietnam. And I was what you would call a war baby, because when he got back, I was born exactly nine months later. So, um then he realized I don't really wanna live in Fayetteville because it's a military town, and if you're there for the military, it's great, and if you're not trying to make a career outta the military, there's not as many opportunities. So he convinced my mom, to go to Raleigh, or more specifically the Garner area, which is a suburb of Raleigh. And, they were married till I was about nine, and then they split up. And I, you know, it's that age where you're not old enough to really look after yourself after school. And he was the one that was, uh, I was staying with. So my, uh, aunt and uncle jumped in and said, Hey, you guys can stay with us and we'll kind of provide that influence when you're not here. He was still working in Raleigh. And so I moved to Dunn and was there from the age of nine till I was 14, So basically almost six years. Then I went to live with my mom for a year back in Fayetteville. but again, it was a military town, so it wasn't what I was used to. decided to go back and live with my dad. Finished high school there, went to NC State for undergrad, got a degree in business management. Um, when I graduated, it was the worst year in 25 years for college grads to, um, get a job. So my high school coach was a assistant coach at Campbell University, and we were close at the time and said, why don't you use this downtime and enhance your, your resume or your, your, you know background and go get an MBA. So I did that. And, um, six months to the month of me graduating, I started, uh, in staffing. And, um, did that for 27 years. Basically, uh, first 12 years I worked for three different companies, um, some of the biggest or largest staffing firms in the world. Specializing what, what, what I did was IT staffing we talked about you had a, background in, in, staffing as well. And that's one of our similarities we were talking about earlier. And I did that for 12 years and, and, um, won a lot of, you know, performance, uh, recognitions, like rookie of the year, multiple performers a year. Presidents Club, uh, wins wanted me to manage, but I knew the jockey always makes more money than the horse. And if I was gonna be both, meaning I was gonna be the, the, the general manager and the, I saw it, it was somewhat or semi feasible if you were recruiter and you're base outta the office. But if you're an account executive would have to be out all the time. And then they want you to do Excel spreadsheets, weekly, uh, conference calls with the other GMs and the VP in your region, uh, monthly, one-on-ones, uh, you know, hosting the, the executive VP every six weeks and make, you know, make sure he's happy for the three days he's in your off, all that stuff. And then still maintain your sales. Well, when you don't maintain those sales and you're the main one driving the revenue it, they say, well, the revenue's dropped off by a million dollars in the last year since Mike took over. The executive VP ain't gonna say, well, there's only so many hours a day you're gonna have to fall on your own sword is what I figured. So it gave me the idea, uh, or was derivative to me, you know, instead of making a good income and you have, you know, I have pretty big hands, but have a lot of the, the, the sand or, and that, you know, for, you know, from a, a analytical standpoint, the sand represented, uh, money. Instead of having money, you know, flowing through my fingers, I decided I wanted all the money, all the autonomy, the potential or prospect for equity in a building. If I eventually bought one, which I did, I took it and, and for a little over 15 years. I started my own boutique IT staffing firm and we were profitable all 15 plus years. And then had some things happen, lost in operations director through, unexpected sickness that took him from us and, had some other life changing events and was at a good point in my life and my career where I had the autonomy to make some changes and some decisions, where it was more about me. And I was at that point where I paid for a kid to go through school and to get grown and I'd put him through college and, and it's ironic because now he's pursuing his MBA. Wants to go into a sales career. It's funny how, you know, the more things change, the more they stay the same. And so, but now I'm wanting to like give back like you are. And the message that both of us, we were talking about the other day, the three biggest decisions that you make in your life are typically who your significant other's going to be. That your house is gonna be probably the, the largest purchase you make and what you're going to do for a career all tied into staffing. And I wanted to get more into the speaking and coaching 'cause I'd already done that with like the MBA class outta state for three years and had, had done thousands of presentations to managers and, you know, dealt with candidates and walked them into interviews. And I was like, what is, it's not that much of a difference from what I was doing then in placing individuals. Now I have the opportunity, I can do it without the monthly guillotine hanging over my head, like making a payment for this or make, and I said, well, why not do it more for, for purposes to feel like I'm even more so I was giving back then, but I wanted to give back more and so that's kind of how I ended up where we're talking and, and you know, trying to do what I'm doing and try to do what you're doing as well.

Caroline 11:30

Awesome. Well, thank you for that. I wanna get a little bit deeper into some of those parts because even though you did a beautiful job of, uh, of summarizing that in, in just a couple minutes, there's also some other parts that I, I think people don't pay attention to. They don't realize, or they think it's just like, as a child, it's just child's play. But I'm curious, as a child in some of those youngest years, what did you love doing for fun? And were there any particular school related subjects that you liked more than others? Because I, I believe that we're, we've been given clues all along of who we are and the kind of things that, that we love doing. And yes, there's time, effort, and energy involved, but it's like invigorating. And there's other things that there's time, effort, and energy and you can do it and you can even do it really, really well, but you might not love it. So I'm just curious, like, let's say, you know, the littlest youngest Mike, you know, as you were growing up, you know, in between mom and dad and all that, but like you mentioned something about a coach, so it seems like maybe sports was involved, but, but what did you do in your for fun as a child? What, what kind of things did you love doing, not love doing, and then school related, were there any particular kind of subjects you enjoyed more than others?

Mikeb 12:43

Um,

Caroline 12:44

Yep.

Mikeb 12:44

That's great que I've not been asked. I've been on multiple podcasts. Those, uh, those are both questions that I've not been asked that I really like because I think when you peel back the onion. You wanna find out what's at the core. And the core is what develops who you become later. And, um, you know, my parents, like I said, they split when I was nine and I was a little bit, uh, without an anchor because you're, you're at that pivotal and we didn't have therapy and things that we do now. And um, my, my, uh, stepfather who was, you know, married to my mom, was coaching, uh, church league basketball and I don't know why. Um, I have a cousin that played basketball at State and, um, his jersey's up in the rafters at their arena. And I'm predisposed he was six six. I'm six five. I'm six a we know the, the, my son's not the mailman's kid, so obviously it's, uh, genetics. But, uh, I, I, and I wasn't very good at it, but I went to a practice when I was 11 and somehow basketball, I don't know if it was the DNA or what. That hit home and I started wanting to, to get more into it. I found myself playing all the time, 2, 3, 4 hours in a day. And um, I think back on it now, introspectively and I think the basketball, because there'd be a lot of times when there was nobody but me on a court. And I had a little racket work that a little side hustle. Um, my court at home was terrible, so we had a neighborhood right behind my home. And moms are great because. The dads aren't gonna be as giving as the moms, but I would knock on the door and say, Hey, can I, can I use your basketball goal There'd be no car part there. And I had about three or four houses in the neighborhood that I would shift between that way I didn't wear out my welcome, but then the dad would be coming home at five 30 and see me like twice in a week there and look at me like, does this kid ever go home? So I realize now when I was there, you know, playing after school maybe three 30 or four and then staying until six or six 30 or whatever the time may have been, I realize now that was cathartic. It was kind of like my own little lab or therapy

Caroline 14:54

Yeah.

Mikeb 14:54

working on my jump shot. It was really giving me time to think and work at issues.

Caroline 14:58

Yeah.

Mikeb 14:59

and problems and kind of, uh maybe microscopically isolate where I was working on certain personal issues that you really did. You know, we didn't talk about things the way we do now. And so I look at it, it was cathartic and it was therapy and I realize that now. And uh, going back to your other question, what was my favorite subject? And definitively that was history. And I find

Caroline 15:27

That's cool.

Mikeb 15:28

Yeah. And, and, uh, I would look around, I would look around in history class at different phases of my educational career, whether it would've been high school ed, you know, elementary, even going up to college. And I would look around at other people that were in class. And I don't know if you've ever seen Ferris Bueller's Day off where there's zoned out, and I keep saying, Bueller, Bueller. And you'd see kids like, you know, with their heads down and half awake or not. And I really was drawn to stuff because, you know, the definition of insanity is if you don't learn from past mistakes, uh, you tend to repeat them over and over. And that's kind of the loose definition of insanity. So I would look at what had happened in other centuries or other time periods, and then you get to a granular level and you pare it down to how that fits into your life. And you go, well, how does this work with, if I did this or if it didn't work for this, uh, country or this economy, in a certain time period, how would I use this personally to make me not make those mistakes of that country or that economy did. So I was really, uh, drawn towards history would be, and, and a lot of times for those because I could personalize it. um, you know, where people sometimes are driven towards science, which was obviously not me. And you know, they say you have your left brain and your right brain, and I've always been, we've both been in sales, so communication's always has been, um, real love of mine, you know, communicating with people and the, the interaction. But then you tie into history with that. And then, you know, as we had talked about with, with placing people in jobs, you find out from previous people that you've placed, you go, oh, you remind me of Bob X and this is the same issue he had. And then you see how

Caroline 17:18

Yeah,

Mikeb 17:18

of it ties back in and, and, uh, I feel like I should be reclining and I should be paying you for this because this may be therapy. But, um, that's

Caroline 17:27

I, I do get that a lot, and I'm a doctor without any patience

Mikeb 17:30

yeah, yeah. You know,

Caroline 17:31

on both ways.

Mikeb 17:33

You're Freud or, or Bob Newhart here. So, no, I, I think it, it did, and I think that's an extension of where I've been all three levels in staffing, you know, whether it be, uh, a full desk, which was perm, a recruiter and an account executive before I owned a company. So that gave me great, you know, uh, background for owning a company. But I think, you know, when you hit that ceiling, you, you've done everything. I want to take a step further and maybe help people out even more from, like I said, without, without monetizing it and saying, well, I get a fee if I place this person, or I get, you know, you can't help but have selfish reasons when

Caroline 18:15

I get it. Yes.

Mikeb 18:16

Yeah, so this,

Caroline 18:17

Yeah.

Mikeb 18:18

a lot of that out of the equation and you go, Hey, it's great to do this for just the reason of giving back, because I've had at least a thousand people that I've placed in my career and generate X amount of revenue and done it. But, but now you get to do it without money aspect weighing you down and being like a swing of guillotine over your head. You just do it because you want to give back.

Caroline 18:40

That's right. Yeah. 'Cause even when I was trying to think about like, what do I really wanna do, um,

Mikeb 18:44

you grow up.

Caroline 18:45

I decided to choose myself and leave my, uh, leave my very well paying, uh, recruitment role, and at first I thought, oh, I'm gonna ride out my non-compete and then I'm gonna go back and get all my clients and stick it to the man. And I was like, Hmm. Like. It just didn't have the right ring to it. And then I had to kind of think back, it's like, what did I really love? I really loved talking to somebody in a moment of questioning and a moment of uncertainty and helping them see how awesome that they were and open up to new possibilities and coach them through that. And there were many times, I'm sure you had this too, that, uh, in recruiting it became very evident sometimes that I was on a call with somebody and while I thought I was talking to them about a job opportunity, I got to learn about somebody in their family that just went to the hospital. Somebody that was just got a different diagnosis. Um, so many things. You become a bit of a life coach while you are a recruiter and

Mikeb 19:41

Absolutely. Absolutely.

Caroline 19:43

you just help people through that moment. And so that's what I, I chose to be like, ah, let's just do the right thing and, and, and help people. And I love that. Now I wanna bring it back to, um, this basketball, this repetition of practice, practice, practice at various different places and how you loved that cathartic nature. And it also made me think like, and then even the history and, and to be successful as a, anything staffing, recruiting related, you have to get to know what are the best practices, what are the ways that we're, that things are done and you just have, have to, to keep hitting it and hitting it and just, you know, getting whatever metrics you had. And so even in your youngest time and you thinking you're just playing basketball and you're setting yourself up for repetition of tasks that you're enjoying, that then did lead to your future success and i've heard you talk about in some of our conversations about you being in martial arts and um, Hall of Fame for some of the things, and I'm curious at what age, because that's a lot of repetition, but at what age for success and practice again and again, and get back up and keep going and do the form and just so that you're just doing it. You're just doing the right things. But like, when did martial arts become a part of your life? Tell us that.

Mikeb 21:04

It's interesting. So, I haven't been, designated or defined as ADD or ADHD, but you know, most executives, and this is a little known fact, most executives are ADD. It used to be a cool term to say I multitask, and that's not as in anymore. We just, you know, so I always tell people I handle one problem at a time. I only touch it one time and then I get to the next thing. So I'm very regimented. It's very good if I stay on a schedule and I do what I'm supposed to do and, you know, um, say what you do, do what you say. So I was kind of rudderless. Because from the age of 11 till I was 21, I played basketball. So I, I wasn't exactly a Rhode scholar, lemme put it that way. I was, you know, uh, I wasn't the most fundamental. My son is much better, and I think he's learned from my mistakes. And I think that's one of the things you give out is where you've hit potholes or minefield and you go, don't do that. Stay away from this. You know? Uh, so I, I think I, I've, I've led some people in directions that way, especially at home, but I was kind of one of my better friends, um, at 21 because for six months he had gotten me into lifting weights and, you know, because I was at six, I was six foot five, so I was 150 pounds at. that, you know, you know, supermodels would've been jealous of me if, as far as weight at that, at that age. But, um, I, my buddy said, Hey, at 19 you need to start lifting weights. And, um, he had a weird way of getting me the point across. He'd shake my hand and take me to the ground, go, please let me go. And, uh, so I started doing that. And so that was going for two years, but you only do that for three, four days a week. So you have all this idle time in between. So he said, he came to me randomly one day, and I think he saw that I was kind of rudderless or without direction because I was so used to in the afternoons playing basketball. I had, I had worked out. Um, so I took my P.E class when I first gotta state and my P.E teacher, we took half a semester of basketball and half semester of bowling. I said, this will be

Caroline 23:00

Oh, nice.

Mikeb 23:00

to get an A and I'll get my P.E requirement. So, uh,

Caroline 23:03

Pause one second on that. Let me tell you my bowling story just real quick. 'cause it, before

Mikeb 23:07

sure. Sure.

Caroline 23:09

I wanted to, I had to take PE right also, and I thought, okay, I'm gonna take bowling. How hard can this be? But let me tell you what happened on the final, right? It was like, it was early, it was like 8:00 AM class or something. I had to walk across campus and I, I'm not a bowler, okay? And, and I was that nerd. I was the nerd, gimme the nerd thing to do. And like water skiing, roller coasters, those things are fun for me. But actual like real ass sports, like I'm the one that like freezes when the ball comes, right? Like, I mean, well I could, I could do a mean game of like pig or horse or whatever the case may be. I can try that. But beyond that it is, I'm just, just not my, it's not my thing. Anyway, so I'm take bowling 'cause I thought that'll be easy and uh, I hate to admit this 'cause my kids make fun of me. Um, the final, on the final, there was a final for bowling and it was a paper test. We didn't have any paper tests the whole freaking time. And the first question wanted you to number the pins, and I still don't know which way the pins are supposed to be numbered, but all I know is I failed that fricking final and I ended up with a C in bowling. Here I am high school valedictorian, most likely to succeed scholarship fellowship. And I got a C in Bowling Mike, like, what the hell? Anyway, sorry. But,

Mikeb 24:25

That's the great con you think about it, it's a great coffee table conversation. When you're at a dinner party, you go, Hey, I was this, this, and this, but I made a C in bowling. So,

Caroline 24:33

you

Mikeb 24:33

so,

Caroline 24:34

know.

Mikeb 24:34

thing about,

Caroline 24:35

Yeah. And which I dunno, like does, is it number one, is the first pin or like number one is like the back? I don't know which way. I still don't.

Mikeb 24:43

first thing that's like two, three, and then I think it's 4, 5, 6. And then it, you know,

Caroline 24:46

See, I did it the other way. I think I went

Mikeb 24:49

Yeah, yeah, yeah.

Caroline 24:50

My bad. Don't do that. Everybody. Don't do that. Listen to Mike for your bowling tips.

Mikeb 24:55

No, no, no, that's fine. So, so with me, so I, I didn't realize our teacher was named Dr. Brown you, you called him Dr. Brown. He made sure you knew he was a doctor. I don't know what it was in, uh, but it was

Caroline 25:06

Bowling.

Mikeb 25:07

Yeah, yeah. he was basketball. He was for basketball.

Caroline 25:11

Okay.

Mikeb 25:12

So I had talked to a couple of schools. Small colleges about playing basketball when I was coming outta high school and I love playing and I, my dad said, why would you go get a degree at a smaller college when you go to NC State and it's gonna have so much more name recognition? And I said, oh, okay. So I opted to do that. And so I took the basketball and the first day of class, I was the tallest kid in class. And I remember thinking, you know, this is gonna be a easy, we're just gonna play a little pickup here. We're gonna, you know, kill. And he was treating it like trying out for a major team. We were doing figure eight drills, if anybody knows basketball, we were, you know, doing layup lines, we're doing, you know, passing drills, all this stuff. And he's yelling at people about not enough follow, throw on the jump shot, or you went off the wrong foot on a layup. And I was like, wow, what have I stepped into? So he's yelling at people. And then finally, I think I'm doing everything okay. And, uh. He calls me over and says, what's your name? And I told him, Mike Barefoot. And he said, have you ever thought about playing basketball here at State? Not obviously anybody that's grown up in this area that plays basketball, you always that with the ACC being so big, you think about that. But I didn't tell him, Hey, I've got a cousin who's, uh, you know, jersey's in the rafters. But, and I'd never met him at that time, my cousin, but, um, he said, well, hey, I am with the team. I'm an academic advisor, but I've been a coach at several HBCU colleges, which is historically black colleges and universities, and I think you could help us out. And I want you to go, at the time the coach was Valvano and he said, I want you to go see Coach V and he stayed on me, perpetually, you know, almost every class until I did go across the street to the case center and went up to the third floor. I didn't think it would be this easy. You go to the, the secretary and she'd been secretary for several different coaches over the years, even after Valvano had left. And I went in and, and this is the age of the typewriter, so he is sitting sideways on a typewriter. And I'd done my homework before I went in there. This is the sales part of me coming out. And I knew he, it was a walk-on at Rutgers. So she said, you know, when I walked up there, she said, she went into his office, said, coach V is ready for you now. And I went in, he turned around and said, how can I help you? And I said, Hey, I wanna talk to you about being a walk-on at, you know, here at State. And he said, we don't have walk-ons. And so I said, weren't you a walk-on for Bill Foster at Rutgers? He said, different era. Turned around, went typing again. I said, okay. Did what coach Dr. Brown asked me to do, saw him the next class. He asked me if I'd done it. I told him what happened. He said, and you stopped there. And I said, well, I did what you asked me to do. I mean, I really wasn't that, you know? And so, um you for fast forward for two years he, or through my junior year into my junior year, he stayed on me to do it. Uh, Valvano got elevated to ad, moved up to the fourth floor. His, uh, back court mate at Rutgers, Dick Stewart became the associate head coach. Um, uh, and I've never really told the story, it is the first time telling a story to like a mass audience, but he, saw me down the hallway, Kelsey Weems left, leaving the team with personal problems. Dr. Brown did, uh, you'll see it in the, on, on the news in a couple days, go by and see Dr. Dick Stewart. So I did that and when I said, Hey, I'm here to be a walk, he said, your timing couldn't be more perfect. Like I, I, I just, it was a psychic and he didn't know that I was talking to Dr. Brown. So, uh, another player comes up, he says, hey, take, what's your name again? I said, Mike, be, he said, take him over to Reynolds, introduce to the guys. I worked out for a couple of months, and one day we had a reality lecture and Coach V was known for being a comedian. And you see all the accolades he gets now, but he was from New York. So, you know, four letter words were not out of his vocabulary. And we, we did scrimmages for a few, a couple of minutes. There were 20 of us. By the time I started, I was the only one. And you know, two months later it mushroomed or ballooned up to 20. So the first 10 of us had a scrimmage for five minutes. I scored a couple of baskets, got a rebound, maybe had an assist. You don't even break a sweat when you're, you know, decent shape like that and then they said you sit down and then the next 10 you get up and then the grad assistant, while the players are stretching, 'cause it was after October 15th when you can start doing it. He um, the grad assistant came over and said, Hey, coach V wants to have a reality lecture with you in the, uh, end zone of Reynolds. And I was like, what is a reality lecture? So we get over there and very quickly I find out, he said, if any of you blanking guys think you're gonna play in the blanking NBA, you're gonna have to put the equivalent of a blanking tackling dummy. And this went on for 30 minutes and this was, you know, three times as long as us playing. And it went. And so all came home for the weekend and told my dad, Hey, so are you going back on Monday? And I said, well, I figured I would. And he said, are you out of your blanking mind? So I've been cussing all morning, you know, based on that. And so I didn't go back and, um, end up running into Dereck Whittenburg, who was one of the stars from the 83 National Championship team later. And he saw me outside of a class at Harrelson and asked me what the hell happened to me. And he had stuck his neck, which you're not supposed to have contact with the players. And I didn't wanna say, Hey, your boss, who you idolized and played for was being, you know, really tough on us. So left it. And he, he said, I, I said, I have grades I need to work on, which weren't, wasn't totally the truth, but I didn't wanna explain all that stuff. So

Caroline 30:01

Yeah.

Mikeb 30:02

are you telling me the truth? And I said, and I remember sweat in November on my brow just referring up. And um, he had his hands on his, his, uh, hips, like a drill sergeant. And Terry Gannon said in the 30 for 30 special ESPN that Dereck Whittenburg, the toughest six footer you'll ever meet. So he is looking up at me and I said, yes, sir. And he said he waited for about 10 seconds, said you can go to class. And I said, and I turned around. I remember sweat just pouring down my face as I was going to the other side of campus. And so for about six months I was kind of I was kind of rudderless and didn't have a direction. And that's when my friend said, I want you to do karate. I met this guy that's really a little bit out there, but it's something I said, but I don't, I don't get into, I'm not getting into fights and I'm not. He said, but you gotta do something. So he

Caroline 30:45

Yeah.

Mikeb 30:45

into, and because I'm so used to doing something that's regimented, uh, the first six months it didn't really click with me. And, um, then I found, we started, there was a another guy that taught on different days that taught a sparring class, and I've always liked competitive stuff. So sparring was kind of like an advanced game attack. Whoever hits first gets a point, you know, and if you could connect and he had a Saturday class, I started going to that and that's when it started. I basically had two techniques, a back fist and a sidekick. That's all I had started doing that started clicking with me more. That was in 1989 and it just stuck with me. And then, um, in 2000, the person that left our school that I was working with out with on Saturdays, him and his cousin started school and they got involved with Bill Superfoot Wallace, who is one of the greatest kickboxers of all time. And the, you know, arguably the best kicker in the world. We start working out with him, got as a school under one of his, his programs. And then in 2006 I started doing Juujitsu because UUFC got really big MMA got big and grappling started. So it just, one thing led to another by accident I didn't mean to go to grad school, didn't mean to get into basketball, didn't mean to get into Mar, but it all kind

Caroline 31:57

They all worked for you. And now I wanna clarify about this, this basketball story. So it sounds like you go in there, okay, you're persistent, you're listening to the guy who's like on you. You go in there and, and you do it. And you're playing and you're playing well. And then this reality talk becomes just a cuss fest. You come home, you tell your dad about it, he's ing too, and then he is, and and like, so wait a minute. Did you decide I don't want to go and be inspired by that kind of leadership

Mikeb 32:30

Well, here's the thing that's

Caroline 32:31

and just not go? Or was it a cuss fest and you guys suck and you're horrible, don't come back? Like which, yeah.

Mikeb 32:38

There was a way to put you in your place and let you know, Hey, we have Scott. And at that time I counted later on I looked back and, and my son looked at it and he said, dad, did you know there were guys, six NBA guys on your roster at six of 'em played in the NBA? I knew it wasn't taking their spots. And my dad even gave me his reality lecture, which was Chris Corchiani, which was the first guy in the NCAA to the, the nine a thousand system, his career and Rodney Monroe that ended up being the all time leading score. And his, that mark still stands today at a NC State. He said, you're not taking their jobs. He said, you're gonna be the guy they roll out with 30 seconds to go on a 30 point blowout and you'll be lucky if

Caroline 33:12

Ah,

Mikeb 33:12

30.

Caroline 33:12

so you're gonna do all the work and end up being a bench warmer, and maybe that's not how you wanna spend your time.

Mikeb 33:19

Right. And he was like, the only thing that can suffer are your grades. Why would you go through all that and then go through the verbal barrage every day?

Caroline 33:27

Correct?

Mikeb 33:27

And

Caroline 33:27

Yeah.

Mikeb 33:28

I said, huh,

Caroline 33:29

you chose your overall see, this is a thing because the world could tell you, oh, why wouldn't you wanna play for state? You should do it. Even if you're just sitting there and you're, and you are that guy in the last 30 seconds, but yet you discerned and through also listening to your dad, you're like, wait a minute. I don't think that's what I wanna do to spend all that time chasing something else, for somebody to just keep yelling at me that I'm not enough or something, or whatever the case may be. And so you chose to direct your time elsewhere?

Mikeb 33:59

Well, and the thing was too, it it, you know, sometimes you have to have somebody like, you know, we talk about guidance and, you know, coaching people and giving, you know, my dad did that for me in terms of giving me that reality lecture of his own in reverse, saying, why would you take on something where you're not gonna get that much? There's not that much juice f-for, for the squeeze

Caroline 34:21

Right.

Mikeb 34:21

You gotta put all this effort and work to say you're a member of this, but you're kind of a fringe member. it's like the Temptations are still touring, but it's not, a lot of 'em aren't the original Temptations. But I get to say I was a member of the temptations, but I wasn't making all the residual checks and the royalties off of these records. But I get a tour with 'em and say I'm a Temptation. But that would've been kind of, uh, you know, metaphor for it.

Caroline 34:42

Imagine what your life would be like if your career aligned with who you are, what you do best, and actually fueled the life you want. At Next Success, we support all ages and stages through career transitions from students exploring majors or careers to job seekers actively searching or re-imagining their next move to professionals committed to self-awareness and leadership growth. Stay connected and explore what's possible at nextsuccesscareers.com and follow @nextsuccessmethod on LinkedIn, YouTube, Instagram, and Facebook. But, but you also did that again, like later on when you realize and people don't understand how it works on the recruiter side, they really don't understand. And, and there's, there's all sorts of cuts and shifts of how the money gets, um done when, when a placement is made, and it depends typically on the amount of work you do or the position that you have and the lower your position or the lower your amount of work, the, the less piece of the pie you get when it's time to eat. And you decided, wait a minute. Similar to this whole basketball thing, honestly. 'cause I'm seeing, like, I, I love seeing patterns and helping people recognize that the things that make you uniquely awesome and you have been there all along, right? So you're doing the regimented thing of basketball, you're loving it, you're finding enjoyment. That's cool. You try to do it as a sport for one of the greatest colleges, uh, programs of all time. Then you realize, wait a minute, I'm gonna spend all my time doing that for a very little return on the investment of my time. Similarly, in recruiting for other people as a lower level recruiter, not having a full experience of dealing with hiring managers and candidates, if you only do one side or the other, you're getting less pie and you're like, and you still have to give pie to the people that above you who own the, the, the business. And you're like, why would I give away my pie? I if I'm gonna do all that anyway, I wanna be in control of my time. And what's the

Mikeb 36:47

Can I interject one

Caroline 36:48

yes.

Mikeb 36:49

interesting how things comes? Things come full circle. So I own my staffing firm and about five, six years ago, have a female, we used to work a lot with North Carolina Central. Speaking of HBCUs, how ironic that is. They were our biggest customer. We placed probably at least a hundred people there. And we had a receptionist position and there was a woman named Whittenburg. And I look at the resume because I'm sending her over for the job. The recruiter's sending me the resume. And she was, I think VP or I don't think she was president. I think Derek was, she was married Dereck Whittenburg. I figured that out 'cause she was vice president of operations for the Dereck Whittenburg Charitable Foundation. So this was the guy that saw me outside of Harrelson, was an assistant coach and asked me. You know, what the hell happened to you? And he doesn't know. And I'm not, haven't had a cut. The only time I'd ever had dealings with him was with, I got autographs from him as a kid. And then that one day when I see him outside of Harrelson, 'cause you're not supposed to have contact with the athletes till October 15th when it's official practice day. And then not only do I deal with him about why did I leave, but then I end up placing his wife X number of years later at North Carolina Central. So that's kind of a, a

Caroline 37:58

It's all small world, right? Yeah.

Mikeb 38:00

and they, and they probably, I'm sure they've never connected the dots. He doesn't know she, you know, he doesn't know that he had talked because he didn't know my name. He just knew who I was

Caroline 38:07

Yeah.

Mikeb 38:08

And she ended up working technically for me and my company. And it's just funny how he was assistant coach that was, would've if I'd played, would've been in charge of me. And then I ended up being in charge and his wife working for me. So it's weird how that all comes full circle.

Caroline 38:22

It is interesting. Yes, yes. It's it. Okay. All right. So you start doing this, uh, karate related thing because your friend now that's a pretty good friend too. That's like, is this the same friend that wanted you to lift weights?

Mikeb 38:36

Yeah, yeah, yeah. It got

Caroline 38:37

That's,

Mikeb 38:38

actually, actually helped get me a job at WKNC at NC State's Radio Station.

Caroline 38:41

oh, wow.

Mikeb 38:42

Years. Yeah, I did, uh, I did uh, news, which is how they start you out to work on your voice for your diction and your articulation. Work on all those elements, you know, so I did news, um, at the beginning and then when the jocks or this jockeys go home for, uh, which is weird to say that in this time in era, 'cause now you've got Spotify and you know, Pandora and Sirius, you don't have as much of that. Uh, when they would go home for the summer, I'd pick up graveyard shifts, like terrible, like Friday night from 12 to three or, you know, whatever. Uh, you know, when the, the, the disc jockeys went home and then I, you know, some of the upperclassmen would go on trips for spring break and that was the same week as the women's ACC tournament. I ended up doing commentary for the, you know, my freshman and sophomore year for, and I knew, I knew basketball, so I did the, uh, commentary for my freshman and sophomore year 'cause I had nothing going on.

Caroline 39:32

It's cool.

Mikeb 39:32

You're gonna be here for spring break, right? And I said, yeah. And they said, we want you to do the ACC tournament for us because we don't wanna be here. We got, we got trips lined up. I was like, okay. So I did the, the women's A, which again, you know, you think about doing that kind of stuff, where we're great pathways. They didn't go anywhere specific. But they were,

Caroline 39:51

It, but it also, it, it helped see, and, and I, I love this because it, like, it supported something that you were already interested in and passionate about basketball. It supported your development of speaking in an engaging way, which yes, now you're trying to like focus on that thing. But even in recruiting, we had very little time to make a connection with the person on the other end of the phone and get them to be really comfortable or the Zoom now. But like it was a lot of phone stuff, um,

Mikeb 40:23

Yeah.

Caroline 40:24

to get them to be really comfortable to tell you stuff and for them to hear clearly when you're describing about what could possibly be and learning more about them. So it's just like.

Mikeb 40:33

you also learned, and you also learned to make a quick assessment of whether they would be good for you to represent for a job, or

Caroline 40:42

Correct.

Mikeb 40:42

look good or bad, and whether you wanted to go forward with them or not, go forward with that person.

Caroline 40:47

That's, and let's talk a little bit about that because this is also something people don't understand. If it's an external recruiter and they're taking an interest in you, that means something because what that external recruiter is doing is risking their time, effort, and energy to try to help you. Their intent is only to help you and so it's in your best interest. Now if, if it's an in, it's with a recruiter, internal to a company, they also might want to help you.

Mikeb 41:18

Yes.

Caroline 41:20

And if it's an external recruiter who's gonna be risking their time, effort, and energy to try to, to help you along through a job process for their client, you do have to realize, yes, that their relationship is on. Like my relationship was on the line. Your relationship was on the line more so than the candidate because we were gonna be staying with that client.

Mikeb 41:39

it's the other, they think they're the star of the show and they don't realize we're the ones lifting the curtain.

Caroline 41:43

Correct? Exactly. Yeah.

Mikeb 41:45

side. And the other side of that is too, to go a little bit further, so for four and a half years I worked for an organization called Matrix Resources, which was the largest IT staffing, um, company or firm in the southeast. They, they just dominated when they were, you know, they, when they were in Raleigh before they sold, they, they were huge. And I, so I worked four and a half years for them, commission only. So when I owned my company for 15 and a half years, uh, you know, I had to go out and, you know, hunt it, uh, catch it, kill

Caroline 42:15

yep.

Mikeb 42:15

it, cook it. And so a lot of people don't realize, so for 17 of my 27 years in staffing, if I didn't think you were viable, I had to make a quick decision. Are you gonna, are your, is your effort and my time going to be worth it? Both of our efforts that, because if it's not, I'm not making money off of you. You could be the greatest person in the world, you could be a talk show host as far as your personality goes. But if you can't do the job, whether they're looking for a business analyst or a programmer or, or tester or whatever, or project manager, whatever it may be, a CISO a, know, chief Information Security officer, whatever it may be, if you can't pull the job off, I may like you a lot, but I've gotta decide that, you know, I, and I rate you as a candidate, B candidate, C candidate. You know how that goes. And you have to decide where they fit into your equation as far as being, you know, placeability

Caroline 43:05

Or even if they could do the job, but their personality is just caustic and not gonna align with the culture of the company. We had to make decisions on that too. That's, that's the thing that people don't understand is like, it's beyond the job description where decisions are made. It's beyond the resume where decisions are made that your technical skills get you in the door. Your personality, your possible culture fit with that team you're going to. And if that recruiter that you're talking to is actually really good and working hand in hand with that team, which a lot of really great recruiters are, then they know, they have, like you're saying, oh, you remind me of this guy who I placed before and you, oh, you remind me of this guy and they've had a really good successful thing. We just tend to end up honing in on the personality traits beyond the resume that really helps somebody thrive and succeed in that role. And that's what we want in any sort of staffing placement. We want that person to be fulfilled and happy in that new chapter that they're taking. And it's also helpful when they stay past the guarantee period and we actually get paid. That's also,

Mikeb 44:12

And

Caroline 44:12

that is,

Mikeb 44:13

the difference between being a good recruiter and a great recruiter. And the thing is, is seeing the long term viability of it.

Caroline 44:20

yeah.

Mikeb 44:21

see does this just fit a need for now? Or where

Caroline 44:23

Right?

Mikeb 44:24

person? Because you know, I always say that the person you place could be the person that you eventually answer to in terms of that company growing and

Caroline 44:31

Correct.

Mikeb 44:32

And there have been people, like I had a guy that was unemployed out of Virginia that was, um, applying for a senior director level role with a company. And he had been unemployed for well over six months. And he went through the third interview and when he knew the offer was coming, he started making all these demands where he was gonna work remote X number of days a week. And this is where remote was in, in vogue

Caroline 44:56

Yeah.

Mikeb 44:56

corner office. He wanted X amount of money for this, he wanted this kind of, uh, flexibility in this area. And I went to the, the, the CIO and I said I wouldn't hire him. And he knew, and this was a perm placement, you know, about, we talked about that. And so I was gonna make well into, you know, I mean. Owning the company. I was gonna make five figures in this deal, and I've turned down over a hundred thousand dollars worth of perm fees in my career. And I told the CIO, you don't need to hire this guy because he's gonna be terrible for your organization in terms of the culture. he said, Mike, let me think about it overnight and I'll get back with you. And he thought about it and he said. Well, for one thing, we don't have a class structure in our organization. I take that outta the equation. He was ex Navy and one, everybody was important. The, the lowest guy on the totem pole was as important as the highest guy. Everybody had a role. And he said, if I took somebody out of a corner office, that would mean that I made that person feel lesser than in the person I'm hiring. And, um, he, said, you're right. And he said he, he just wanted to think about it. And he said, that's the why reason I work with you exclusively is because I don't know anybody in Raleigh that would turn down a perm fee of the magnitude. 'cause it was six figures. And

Caroline 46:03

Yeah.

Mikeb 46:03

well, what we were getting was five. He said, I don't know anybody that would turn down that kind of money. And I said, well, here's the problem. If I place him with you eventually, I'm probably gonna have to work with him to fill other positions. I know it's not only gonna be good for your organization, but it's gonna be bad for my organization too. And it's gonna leave a bad taste in everybody's mouth that I put in there. The first thought is gonna be who placed him here. You know

Caroline 46:23

Yeah,

Mikeb 46:23

where we

Caroline 46:23

right. And I, I turned down stuff too, and people, there were plenty of other people sitting near me that were very much about the thing right then that day. And I was like, Uhuh, I wanna, I wanna make the, the longer term thing. And, and some people thoughts were, oh, well if they leave then we just get to get another placement.

Mikeb 46:43

Backfill.

Caroline 46:44

Oh my gosh, that this is, and, and I started having those feelings even more like, I don't think this is the right environment for me anymore. And if that's how I'm like, and I used to say, you know, you can play. In your sandbox however you want to, but there's a time where I'm gonna just get up and go find my own sand. Like that's just,

Mikeb 47:04

Well, that's what I did when I, my own organization,

Caroline 47:06

yeah.

Mikeb 47:07

I was a good driver for revenue. So I would be called, or when the, the VP would come into town every six weeks or so, he'd always go out with the, you know, the, the GM one night and he would, um, take me out another night. And after this was going on for a couple years, I finally asked him, I said, Hey, am you know, why are you, I know you can, you're, you're supposed to take out the gm. Why are you asking me out there? And he, and he was, he was blunt with me. He said, 'cause you're the only one that'll tell me the damn truth. And I said, what? He said, well, I get what I want to hear from everybody else. They tell me what I want to hear. You're the only one that'll really tell me what's going on. And sometimes you tell me what I don't want to hear, but you think it's what, what should be heard? And I go, well, I don't really have anything to, if, if you don't go with my idea, what if I, I, I'm not a, I'm not a officer, I'm not a gm. I'm not, you know, but you asked. And he said, well, that's the reason I have you go out every time with me. So he'd be there for two nights and three days. And he would go out with the GM one night and he'd go out with me another night. And I, you know, he'd ask, he'd said, what do you think about this? And I had a conversation with this person. They told me this and what do you, and, and I would just give him my unabashed real, transparent opinion. And I finally was like. You know, it was just kind of, why am I doing this? Why am I going out with you? And, and finally, why do you always, it seems like I'm his sounding board, or you know, he's, you know, throwing spaghetti against the wall and checking which meatball stick. I wondering why he's bouncing things off of me. And he just finally told me I was the only one, you know, giving him, you know, no filtered answers.

Caroline 48:38

Yeah,

Mikeb 48:38

I said, okay. But I said, if you don't go with it, that's fine. And if you go with it, that's fine too. I mean, you know, it doesn't, no skin off my nose either way.

Caroline 48:46

that's the thing, just being authentic, being yourself, communicating clearly, transparently, and telling the truth. Like then you don't have to wonder what the story was because you know the story. It's the truth. Right?

Mikeb 48:56

If it got traced up and can it, am I going to be the one necessarily that they're gonna say that came from my, no, I just would be the one that he was like taking to dinner. And that could be interpreted. I think he really gets along with Mike. I, you know, 'cause nobody's there except for me and him for dinner.

Caroline 49:12

Yeah.

Mikeb 49:13

So you don't know how much of that, you know, but you can kind of trace and go, well that must be the GM that told him that. Or that must have been, you know, I didn't really care what, at the end of the day, whether he took my idea or not, because I wasn't getting paid extra for it. And I was actually trying to just do what was best for the office. Not for me personally. Not for me, but I was trying to say how, because I was driving the revenue, I was, you know, account executive when the great recession hit in 2008, when I first started, we had five practice groups with 27 people. We had engineering, aerospace engineering, healthcare, accounting, and then finally us with IT. And when, you know, everything, the economy went just through the, the, the floor. We were the only ones standing because we were doing, you know, at least. Around $3 million of revenue a year through me. So they kept us and they got rid of the others. And um, we eventually added one person accounting back when things started to stabilize. But, uh, there's a reason we're why all that left. And I think, again, I was being honest, transparent, having integrity, looking at the big picture and saying, I'm not gonna make this placement just for instant gratification. I'm gonna make this 'cause it's good for them and it's good for us. And

Caroline 50:23

That's.

Mikeb 50:24

relationship, you know,

Caroline 50:26

Now I'm curious, when you were lit, like your youngest version of yourself, what do you recall as like being what you thought success was like, what you thought it meant to be a successful adult? What was that picture that you had at that time?

Mikeb 50:44

um, I I thought it was, you know, I I came from a household where, um, honesty and, and having integrity was always, really emphasized so uh, those were the two components I think that were the biggest in my wheelhouse of what was expected. Um, my dad was always, and the reason I always say I was not a great student, I made good grades. It's good enough to get in the state, but I, again, I was playing basketball so much. I would do the, I would be the kid that did the term paper the night before and pull A, because I was good at writing and I was good at communicating. So as long as I've made A's and B's, which is what I would do, and, but that's terrible when you're doing, you know, uh, homework in front of the tv or you're studying the night before a quiz and you make a B in it and your dad's not giving you any grief because you're able to pull a b, that's not because, you know, to get to college, you know, it's, it's the upper echelon. And I didn't really develop into a decent student until I got to graduate school. And I did well in the GMATs. I went to, I was not good at math at state, but that's a STEM school, science, technology, engineering, and math. So taking the same math because they were trying to save money at state that the engineers, uh, department would, because one of every three students at state was an engineer, so they would use those maths to weed out. So instead of having separate math for us, they'd make us take the same math as the engineers. I'm thinking, why am I taking this level of calculus? Why am I, you know, along with a bunch of engineering and they're weeding these guys out and I'm having to take it so. I actually did decently well above average on the math portion. Did really well on the, the communications and English side. But I was still on probation in grad school, but I, you know, I, again, I didn't develop into a decent student until, and that was because really the only reason that was, was because you couldn't make more than two Cs and you had to graduate with a least a 3.0 average. So that's when I became a, a decent, so I've emphasized it to my son and now he's an honor grad, an honor in undergrad in high school, and, you know, all the, the places he's been in, in community college, he was there as well. Um, he's learned from my mistakes and I, I don't like the term things as mistakes or losses. I like to refer

Caroline 52:59

It's lessons he's learned from your lessons.

Mikeb 53:01

Lessons. Exactly. That's what I was gonna say. It's lessons. So I try to say, Hey, you know, do, I'm the one that has to talk him off the ledge and go, well, my GPA will only be, I go, Hey, nobody's really care. About 10% of the equation, like you said, is just getting you in the door with, with your pedigree and where you went to school and what you graduated with. The 90% of it's what you do when you get there,

Caroline 53:21

That's right. And, and who knows you and likes you, who you know, who knows you and likes you. Um, 'cause that's the thing, and you know, somebody told me one time like, what's the person, uh, who graduates with the worst grades in medical school called? And I'm like, exactly. A doctor. You're like, dang,

Mikeb 53:38

Yeah,

Caroline 53:40

Wow. Maybe I met them, you know, compared to some of the

Mikeb 53:43

a few of them work with me, you know, in terms of, you know,

Caroline 53:46

Yeah. Yeah. Uh, well, I'm curious

Mikeb 53:48

work doctors, so, I mean, you know,

Caroline 53:52

Now, how about now I'm, I'm really big on success and authentic success, and that's how you define it now with all your, um, you know, learnings over time, like how do you define authentic success for yourself in this moment.

Mikeb 54:08

I think, you know, and that's one of the things, you know, success is different things to different people. One person's floor is another person's ceiling. I've had, you know, mothers or housewives that say, you know, my big concern is I have two small ones at home and I wanna work within 10 or 15 minutes of where we live in case I have to go to school and pick them up, or be at their beck and call or deal with them. So I'm willing to take a 10, 15, $20,000 decrease because that's what is important to me as being a great mother to my kids. Where you see a breadwinner or a father sometimes who perceive, you know, and that role was more perceptive, you know, 20 years ago than it is now. 'Cause you have women, 62% of the college population now are women. So, you know, they would be like, I wanna make, you know, that extra $20,000 per year and I want, you know, performance bonus and I want remote work and I want, so I, I realize, you know, success is individualistic. You know, I could be wanting to have, and this is one of the things that I, I think drives me more now or motivates me more is success is, you know, excelling with personal interpersonal relationships with people. You know, how do I become a better partner to my significant other? How do I have a better relationship with my, my child? Um, how do I come across better as a person and not be individualistic as opposed to being giving as opposed to taking. And I still want to be successful. We all need to have certain success financially to be able to lift. But I think once you reach a certain level, some of those priorities and definitions, say become diluted, but they change. And you, know, and I've, I've really learned to preach just not only through my own life, but seeing how people will make the almighty dollar you know, their deity and it takes away because they're putting in the 60, 70 hour work weeks, and then you realize that they don't have time for their kids. Their health suffers. We talk about that, you know, and, and, and other aspects of their life go downhill. But they can still say, I made $175,000 last year. Well, that's great

Caroline 56:16

Yeah.

Mikeb 56:16

but, but you don't spend any quality time with your kids or your wife, and you rarely go on vacation and your cholesterol's through the roof and you, you know, have all these other things that aren't working. But you can say you're, you have this job title and you make this amount of money per year and you drive this type of car. You know, that's kind of a very, you know, it's a very it's like saran wrap around a new appliance. It looks good, but after a certain point you gotta take it. Aw, you know, apart. And you gotta start using it, you know, and it's, you know, it's gonna get banged up and beat up if it's used too. And I just say that, you know, one person's floor is another person's ceiling. Just because you think it's success and it may even be successful in your train of thought or your light, doesn't mean it's totally successful because everything in your life is like slivers of pie. Your health, your wellbeing, your emotional state, your psychological state, your interpersonal relationship with others. I think if you, if you have balance and harmony in your life, you can use that and, and have a more successful 40 hour work week or 45 hour and have the other parts of your life work, and that's gonna overlap into your work life and make you more plugged in when you're there. And we've had studies that show that after 40 hours per week, productivity goes down significantly.

Caroline 57:36

Yeah.

Mikeb 57:37

you're putting in more hours, you may be getting stuff done, but you're getting it done at a much slower pace.

Caroline 57:41

Yep.

Mikeb 57:42

It may be a sloppier, um, set of work that you're putting out. So I'm all about balance and harmony and realizing that if you have that in the different aspects of your life, that's gonna translate to the work and some of the other things that have to get done. But other things that you need to feed yourself is gonna make you be a well-rounded, more well-rounded person.

Caroline 58:03

I love that. Now, it also reminded me of like back when we were first married and I was working, working, working, working, working, and then some, and writing my dissertation at the same time. My husband just kind of told me one time, he said, look, every now and then you gotta just stop and like sharpen your knife. You're just whittling and whittling and cutting things all the time. But like, just, just take a break, you know, relax, go back to it another time with fresher eyes. And that's what you're saying too, like, you know, you can, you can work long hours and you can work long and hard, but then you're gonna be hardly working, um, in, in getting stuff, stuff actually done. Um, well, Mike, how do people, I know that you're moving into this speaking focus now and, and philanthropy and those kind of things. Let's say somebody's looking for a speaker and they could really value from some of the, the lessons and the things that you do. How do they go about finding you and, and learning more about how to make that work?

Mikeb 59:00

Right now you can always reach me at my email address. I still have the work email intact, which is mike b@redzoneresources.com the other is, you can always reach me um, uh, well, I'll say two, the other one is LinkedIn. Um, you could reach me, uh, on my LinkedIn account. It's Michael Barefoot and through one of those two means. That's, that can always start initial conversation and we can go and, you know, expand from there just like we did. And, um, you know, and I, I think as I get, we were talking about where you're at in your phase, you're a little bit ahead of me because you've been doing it longer and so you have to kind of gradually, as you reach certain levels, then you get to the next step in terms of what you're willing to, you know, bring into your stable as far as gaining traction. And that's what I'm trying to do at this point. So.

Caroline 59:52

That's awesome. Well, I've, I've enjoyed getting to know you. I look forward to continuing to, uh, to meet up with you through NSA Carolinas and maybe even, you know, outside of that, I know we're gonna be doing what we can to kind of collaborate and, uh, support each other through this initiative. But thank you so much for all of your time today and for sharing more of your story. It's just, just really been an honor to be a part of it. So thank you so much, Mike.

1:00:18

Mike, thank you. Thank you for the discipline you've brought to your work and for sharing the story behind it. Thanks for listening to your next success with Dr. Caroline Sangal. Remember, authentic success is yours to define and includes aligning your career to support the life you want.