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Some retirement plans look perfect on paper and still don't bring peace. Today, Chris Pollard explains why retirement planning has to go beyond the numbers so you can move forward with clarity, confidence, and a life that actually fits. This is the Your Next Success podcast, and I'm your host, Dr. Caroline Sangal. I'm a life first career coach and strategist on a mission to normalize questioning your career because I believe each of us is made on purpose for a purpose only we can fulfill. The longer we live out of alignment with who we are, what we do best, and why we are here, the more we miss out. And the more the world misses out on what only we can give. The Your Next Success Podcast is where we explore how to build a career that truly fuels your life. We talk about self-discovery, smart job, search strategies, professional growth, and you'll hear stories from people who have navigated big career transitions themselves, so you can create a life, first career and become your own version of authentic success. My guest today is Chris Pollard. Chris is a West Point graduate, a US Army veteran, and the principal of Great Path Planning in New York. For more than 15 years, he's helped high network families prepare for retirement, especially the part that most plans ignore how to actually live well once the work stops. He's also the author of Untangling the Golden Knot. A practical write-in guide that blends financial planning with reflection. So retirement becomes more than a milestone, it becomes the life that you're building and ready for. Retirement planning is supposed to bring relief. You run the numbers, you build the plan, and you reach the milestone. Yet for many people, the tension doesn't disappear. Chris Pollard understands why in this conversation he shares how his own life shaped the way that he thinks about time, responsibility, and readiness, and why a solid financial plan does not automatically translate into peace of mind. We talk about what's missing when retirement is treated as a calculation instead of a transition, and how clarity comes from knowing what you're retiring into, not just what you're leaving behind. This is retirement planning beyond the spreadsheet where confidence, meaning, and intention matter as much as the math.

Caroline 2:42

Welcome Chris to Your Next Success. I'm super excited to be talking with you today.

Chris 2:48

Yeah, it's good to be speaking with you as well.

Caroline 2:50

Awesome. Okay. So as you know, I love talking about people's journeys, their careers, career transitions, and all of that. So we are gonna get to all of the awesome work that you do today. including your amazing book, uh,'Untangling The Golden Knot, Confronting Your Retirement Worries, and Knowing When Enough is Enough.' So we're gonna get to that you help a lot of people with their financial security. And can we start with like you, where were you born? Did you have any brothers and sisters? What was life like, at the earliest ages and stages for you?

Chris 3:25

Sure. So I grew up in New York on Long Island, a couple 30 minutes outside of New York City, in the suburbs of, uh, Long Island near, kind of near the beaches close, like be at the beaches in 15, 20 minutes on the North shore, the South Shores. We were kind of in the middle, so it's nice, was born into a, family, my parents were getting divorced around the time I was born, I had one full brother and then both my parents remarried and then I have half siblings as well. So I had a half brother and then with on one side, and then a half brother and half sister on the other side. So kind of a blended family, multiple siblings going on. So, yep, lived with my grand mother for a few years and my mother, and then when my mother remarried, with my, uh, step, with my mother and stepfather. And then my mother passed away early in life. So, uh, then I lived with my dad and stepmother, uh, after that. So,

Caroline 4:20

Were you when that happened?

Chris 4:22

Uh, just turned seven, so it was a very early life event for me, which influences a lot of the stuff we talk about in the book. And thinking about the impacts of how you spend your time in life and if you're gonna do a transition, what are you transitioning from and into. Like, a lot of that comes from, you know, seeing how life can be pretty short sometimes. So,

Caroline 4:42

Yeah. Wow. Okay. So when you were in your youngest stages, what did you love doing for fun?

Chris 4:51

Alright, very much was into imaginative play, playing with like action figures, things like that and I also like to build things, so doing, uh, like LEGOs, Construx if people remember like in the eighties, Lincoln Logs, Tinker Toys, like that kind of stuff. And then like building huge fortresses and then having armies attack and like, you know, very imaginative, but with engineering type stuff.

Caroline 5:15

Yeah.

Chris 5:15

So that's a lot of what I, uh, really enjoyed doing, uh, as a kid. And then eventually started doing like piano and music stuff as well. So,

Caroline 5:24

And what did your parents do for work? Sometimes there's generational interests. Um, some could say, yeah,

Chris 5:33

Yeah. Uh, so my dad did computer networking. Uh, so started out working at banks, doing their computer networks, and then worked for Barnes and Noble, uh, Sony Music and then finally a market research company, uh, making sure all their data was secured, backed up, transferrable, and he was director of networking. Uh, and then my, my biological mother, uh, did electronics engineering, um, some stuff like that and then my stepfather was an electrical engineer and my stepmother was a nurse originally and then became a teacher, so,

Caroline 6:15

Interesting. So you had a lot of really, um, you had some helping people, uh, influences. You had a lot of this engineering mindset influences and really getting things done and systems and systems thinking. Um, fascinating. Uh, now how about when you went to school? Were there any particular subjects that, or activities that you liked more than others?

Chris 6:39

I was, I very much like, uh, math, science. I was in, I'd say in high school, elementary school. I, I really loved science and at first I kind of struggled in reading and math. And then after a while it just kind of clicked around fourth grade, uh, I switched, my parents switched us to a, a school that used self instruction curriculum, so you didn't have to sit there and be taught and then attempt to keep up and kind of work on your own, your teacher would step in and help you, which is the more classical model in classrooms now. Instead it was, here's your books, you do these pages in your workbooks. Let us know if you need help. So you do a lot of independent reading and learning in a quiet environment with little distractions. So that was very, uh, transformative for me academically to learn to, you know, learn on my own and I feel like I just remember it clicking one day like, oh, I can do this. And then my, the struggling really stopped, because I could just pace myself. And then once I felt like I was caught up, I actually got ahead and would always get work done early. um, so the change in an educational environment was pretty, uh, important. And then I, I was very interested in like, for a while I was like, oh, I wanna be a doctor. So I was interested in medical stuff and, kinda was on that path for a while and then I said, well, I want to join the army'cause it's fun to blow things up, you know? So,

Caroline 8:05

And you'd been making those, uh, army related, uh, play scenarios for years, you know?

Chris 8:11

So yeah, so I, I had all different, a very varied interest for a while. I was like, oh, I'll be a professional piano player. Like, you know, there's like.

Caroline 8:19

Yeah.

Chris 8:20

So many different things that I was kind of interested in and would phase between them, which, uh, made me a little less concerned when my kid, when I see my kids doing that now and it's like, well I think I'll try this, I think I wanna do that. And then it changes on a week to week. I'm like, oh, that's part of them exploring ideas, this doesn't mean they actually want to do it. It means, today I think I wanna try this maybe, right. So,

Caroline 8:43

And how old are your kids now?

Chris 8:44

My boys are 17 and 18, so they are graduating from high school this year we're trying to move on to college and some other post-secondary, uh, learning. So,

Caroline 8:56

That's cool.

Chris 8:56

Fingers crossed, we'll see how that goes.

Caroline 8:58

I'm curious, was the school, was it like a montessori approach or it was something different?

Chris 9:03

It was run out of our church, actually, so it was kind of a lot of it was raised was, the curriculum development had in mind a lot of the homeschool movement, from the late eighties probably, um, mid to late eighties. It was often done in a religious context of, you know, we want to instill values in children. And, depending on where you live in the country, your values might conflict with what is being taught in the schools where you live, right? We saw a lot of that during the pandemic, people having, you know, being very opinionated about vaccines one way or the other, like that kind of thing, but with a religious context. So, a lot of the early homeschool stuff was either hippies doing it or religious people doing it. And then since in the nineties to two thousands, it kind of became a little more mainstream and nowadays like since the pandemic, we all realize that, well, we teach kids at homes and there are pros and cons to it. So how, if you were already going to do it, what's effective? So yeah, the, the curriculum was based out of curriculum that could be used in a homeschool context or in a school.

Caroline 10:09

That's cool. That's really cool. That's awesome that your parents realize that about you and wanted to set you up for your best success and your preferred learning styles that they'd observed. That's amazing.

Chris 10:23

Yeah.

Caroline 10:23

Okay, so now you get into high school and you're trying to decide what to do next, and what do you bring into that decision? And then what did you decide to do?

Chris 10:36

Well, I, I was like, uh, one day a teacher said to me, well, what do you want to do when you're like, for career or at a, after high school? I was like, oh, I just wanna join the army or something'cause I was in my, in an army phase.

Caroline 10:49

Yeah.

Chris 10:49

And then a teacher said, Chris, you're too smart to join the Army. If you're gonna join the Army, you should go to West Point. And I was like, oh, what's West Point? And I looked at it a little bit, I'm like, this is kind of cool. And then it kind of went outta my brain, that was probably like late eighth grade, early ninth grade and then I took the PSATs and did relatively well. And then, you know, colleges start mailing you mailers and a West Point one arrived and I said, oh, my teacher had mentioned this once and I looked at it and said, well, I'm gonna read, read up on West Point, and just became enamored with the idea of, you know, this very prestigious institution with a long history of raising some great leaders and great education. And said, although this is definitely what I want to do. So, uh, I started, you know, developing an interest in that. And then I got to a point where it was very, the application process is quite, rigorous and it was a little bit overwhelming, uh, to say, okay, we have to get congressional nominations and then pass physical exams and PT tests and then have good grades and it's just like all this stuff. So I said, well, I don't even know if I like the Army, so maybe I should try it first. So I joined the Army Reserve while I was in high school still'cause you're allowed to, they had a waiver program. You're 17, you can join, your parents just have to sign a waiver and then you start doing on the weekends basically, it's like part-time army. So got to try it out. So I liked it and then I also, as a backup option, had applied to ROTC so I could get college paid for at Hofstra. Uh, so I got a scholarship at Hofstra and I was like, oh, I'll just do that and forget the West Point thing and then one of my leaders in my unit said, you will not forget this West Point thing. The Colonel wrote you a letter of recommendation and you're not gonna just take that and then just say, oh, I didn't feel like following through, so you're gonna follow through. And he's like, when's the deadline? And I said, it's like 10 days from now. And he said, okay, so you're gonna call me every night and tell me what you did that day to get your application in and if you don't, I will come and kill you in your kitchen. And he was a Navy Seal, so he had, uh, the right to say that. And,

Caroline 13:07

Were you empowered by that? Terrified Or both?

Chris 13:10

A little bit of both. So, yeah. Um, so every day I got something done and got the application in and then you just wait to see what happens. And then eventually one day you get a thick packet in the mail and it says, congratulations, you've been accepted report on this day, so end up going to West Point. Um, I actually went to a regular college state school for a year before I went to West Point during that application time because I was, uh, just to say, all right, I wanna go to college for a year and try the Army for a year before I do the West Point thing, and I commit to it. So

Caroline 13:46

Did you know anybody else, uh, before you started trying this out, had you had any family or friend connections or church connections of people who had been in the military?

Chris 13:59

Not really, uh, the grandparents in World War II kind of thing.

Caroline 14:03

Yeah.

Chris 14:03

Uh,

Caroline 14:04

Yeah,

Chris 14:05

But not a ton of exposure to military stuff, which is fascinating to me. And, um, you get a lot of adventure, which in the mind of a 17, 18-year-old boy is like, you know, just do cool stuff and be a hero, you know?

Caroline 14:21

Absolutely, well, and that's, I think it was super smart of you to try to sort out ways to try before you buy type of thing too.

Chris 14:29

Yeah.

Caroline 14:30

You know, joining the reserves and the ROTC and all of those things and trying it out that that's, uh, really, really smart. I think more people, more folks, as they're considering transitions and career changes should try before they buy for a little bit. Like it's an experiment. Let's just see how it goes. Um, okay, so you go to West Point and then what is life like actually on the inside? I mean, it is from the outside, you're right, it's really prestigious, looks amazing. Um, even for somebody to get in for a tour, there's a whole lot of, uh, procedural things to, to even get to do it. But now your life on the inside, what happens there? Yeah.

Chris 15:13

Yeah, so there's a lot of the stuff that you think would be there, which is, you know, you show up to cadet basic training and it's, you know, bootcamp type environment. One of the things that is a little shocking is,'cause I had done Army basic training before, so doing this is, it was much more mentally taxing because you had to do a lot more memorization, reciting, and then also do things like read the front page of a newspaper, read all the stories, and be able to summarize them if someone asks you and you have to do things like memorize what are the meals for the day? And it's just like a lot of like quickly absorb information stuff, uh, which is very intense, which is almost more tiring and stressful than do pushups, you know, that stuff is like, you just do pushups so you can't anymore, and then you kinda like flop around trying to show effort and you know, it's fine when you're trying to memorize stuff and you have to get done by a deadline, and then people are screaming in your faces as you're trying to remember things, it's like a different, different game. Um, and then academically, once you get out of that phase, you go into the academic year, you're, you know, a freshman, they call'em plebes. Uh, you have duties and responsibilities delivering laundry and collecting trash and doing stuff like that. Plus, shine your shoes, make your room perfect, do parades, do intramurals, do a full course load, which I don't think there was a single semester at West Point there it took less than 18 credit hours, that was like the lightest, and I think the highest was like 23 or 24 credit hours, uh, which included Chinese, Physics, uh, like Engineering Calculus, which is like the calculus above Calc 3.

Caroline 17:01

Yeah.

Chris 17:01

It's like,

Caroline 17:02

Yeah.

Chris 17:03

Move over a three dimensional surface? And what's the odds of a electron being in a particular place in a crystalline structure at any given time? And you were like, well I don't know. So, uh, the academic, uh, demands were very significant and I was a reasonably good student in high school and I had a very pretty good GPA at the state school I went to, but then I ended up being more in the, you know, middle of my class academically and smarts wise, because there were people who are just, you know, like valedictorians were kind of the expectation, not the exception there.

Caroline 17:37

Yeah. Yeah.

Chris 17:38

Uh, it was like very intense and you get a lot of, uh, imposter syndrome and you're like, I don't belong here, like everybody else is significantly smarter than me. Um, and you know, a lot of pressure and all that. Uh, it gets better in year three, year two is the worst year academically usually, where there's just very high course load. Uh, you also have responsibilities of mentoring, uh, underclassmen, so second year is very difficult, uh, academically, that's when I was doing Chinese and other stuff at, with Electrical Engineering, like layered.

Caroline 18:15

Yeah, how'd you pick electrical engineering?

Chris 18:18

Uh, I was always fascinated with how computers work and not just the programming side, but also like the mechanics and circuit design and that kind of stuff was always super fascinating'cause my dad would like, bring computers home from work that were like broken, that they just throw away and he was like, cobble together the pieces and say, okay, this is how we're gonna fix the computer and this is how it works and we're gonna build a computer network in our house. And like seeing how you can take a computer that's broken, fix it, turn it into something useful, connect computers together was very fascinating to me, so that's how I head in the electrical engineering direction, which, um, interestingly, I, I started with electrical engineering, then I was like, well, I don't think I'm gonna ever do electrical engineering. Like, so I should switch to a different major. So then I switched to West Point's equivalent to business, which is like a leadership and management and I hated it. It was just like writing papers and reading on leadership development stuff, which I was not interested in at the time.

Caroline 19:22

You wanted more hands on doing?

Chris 19:24

Yeah, either hands-on doing or that, just the math, like if you were to say, okay, write a a 10 page paper or do 10 pages of math problems, I would much rather do 10 pages of math problems, even complicated ones, like writing papers is like viscerally painful to me, so I was like, forget this. So I switched back to electrical engineering. So,

Caroline 19:46

Interesting. Very interesting. Um, and then what about your intramurals or your other activities outside of the coursework you were supposed to be doing? How did you, like did you have to do intramurals and you had to do other activities? Um, or you got to choose to do other activities?

Chris 20:03

Uh, you have to, uh, and then you can choose to do some. So I did a lot of stuff with music, I was pianist at a church. Um, I was involved in the glee club and then also was a pianist for a gospel choir. So, did a lot of music stuff in free time, that, that was the optional stuff, the intramural is you're gotta do an intramural this period. So pick one and put in your wishlist, and then whichever one isn't full, maybe you'll get kind of thing, so some people would get forced to do boxing, right? Or you know, other people would get, forced into other things they didn't want to do. One semester I do ultimate Frisbee and I am not good with the Frisbee, it was like painful to like, you know, just be like, your teammates are like, Chris, you really suck at this and I'm like, yeah, I know. Sorry.

Caroline 20:51

What did you like intramural wise?

Chris 20:53

Uh, I like running stuff. So cross country orienteering which is fun. Orienteering is, they give you points on a map and you gonna run to'em, and then you get points for which team can finish first. That's fun.

Caroline 21:03

That's cool.

Chris 21:04

I did a lot of martial arts oriented stuff, so grappling, Brazilian Jiu-jitsu type stuff, which I enjoyed a lot too. So yeah.

Caroline 21:13

Okay, so now after you graduate from West Point then, then what? Do you have to like continue on? Yeah. And for how long or how does that work? Yeah.

Chris 21:23

Yeah. So, uh, you have to do five years on active duty then you, it's a total of eight year commitment once you finish West Point five years on active duty and then you can leave the military after five years, but they could call you back within a three year period. So while I was at West Point, when I was a sophomore, 9/11 happened. So you can imagine that was a little bit of a, shift in what we all knew what was coming instead of going from, you know, the most recent conflict wa had been the Gulf War. So before that, and before that was, you know, we're talking like Granada, which most people didn't participate in before that was Vietnam, right? So, were talking a good almost 20, 30 years without a major, major conflict and then all of a sudden it's, oh no, we're going everywhere. Uh, and then you start to see people that you knew get deployed to Afghanistan and Iraq, so as soon as we get out, we do training, uh, whatever special subspecialty within the Army you have, there's different fields. There's communication fields, there's infantry, artillery, all these different fields. So I was, uh, slated to be in the infantry for a few years and then go into the communications field. So it was like a, a a two field kind of career path that they put me on, that I signed up for. Um, so we started out doing infantry stuff and did about a year to a year and a half of training, then, uh, did a deployment to Iraq where we're driving around with, they said here, all right, here's a platoon, 40 guys, you and a bunch of tanks and guys with machine guns, don't kill anybody you're not supposed to and try to keep the Iraqis from killing each other'cause this was after the initial invasion of iraq which was in 2003. So I went over in 2006. So this is just before when things are starting to ramp up where Sunnis and Shia Muslims were in the area were just kind of killing each other a whole bunch and then we did the surge right after I left. So it was kind of ramping up into the, oh my god, we need to send a hundred thousand people here to keep it under control, which is what was ramping up while I was there. So a lot of like somewhere suppose be bad guy there, he's not there. Or he was there, but now he's not there anymore. Driving around trying to get blown up with IEDs and then go back to the base and then just do that every day for a year. So it was a uh, interesting experience.

Caroline 23:49

Yeah.

Chris 23:49

And I said, this is not for me. I don't like this. So, um, very high pressure situations where you don't know who is and isn't an enemy, um, was not particularly fun and I said, all right. I, good with, uh, this army thing. Um, I then went to work at Army Basic Training, uh, on staff there. So helped plan operations and, and resourcing and things like that where we trained all the infantrymen for the Army, um, and some other support units to train about 10,000 people a year.

Caroline 24:21

Did you like that part better because it was more structured or how was that? Or It was still more like this gut feeling of this is fun and what's next?

Chris 24:30

Yeah, yeah, yeah. It's, I was ready to kind of move on. Um,'cause part of the military life is, it's very controlled in some ways and not in others. So you're kind of told what you can and can't do all the time, which as you can kind of get from my education experience, I'm very good being independent. Just tell me what needs to get done, then leave me alone is much better how I work than the constant, like, monitoring, micromanagement, changing missions, those kinds of things, just isn't the greatest personality. Can I work within that framework? Yes. Uh, do I like to? Absolutely not.

Caroline 25:05

Right. So it's, yeah. So while you can perform your wellness and your, um, relationships, your, your wellbeing and your relationships are kind of taking a bit of a hit'cause you've got this inner turmoil, inner struggle of I don't think this is what I'm supposed to be doing, type of deal.

Chris 25:21

Yeah. And then you have the commitment, right? So then you gotta

Caroline 25:24

And now you're stuck. Yeah,

Chris 25:26

And not be a sore loser, basically, you know, call it like

Caroline 25:29

Yes.

Chris 25:30

You're quit in your, what do they call it? Ghost quitting or whatever.

Caroline 25:33

Quiet quitting. Yeah.

Chris 25:34

Yeah. You can't Quiet Quit in the Army. So I, you see people do it, but it's not good for,

Caroline 25:39

Anything.

Chris 25:40

It's almost worse than just like playing the game.

Caroline 25:43

Yeah.

Chris 25:43

In as much, uh, a better strategy for everyone's sanity. Um, so I did three years in the National Guard after that, uh, where, but that was part-time. Most of the time they got activated to Afghanistan, but they had me come on as a budget analyst, so I helped control the money for the brigade.

Caroline 26:03

How did you get into that?

Chris 26:04

Uh, they were like, oh, you're a financial, financial, because I started transitioning into financial planning. So they said, okay, you know, finances, so you should run the money stuff'cause they have a role in each unit where a person helps plan out, okay, you have, for anyone that wants to know about military and government budgeting, Congress passes a bill that says you are allowed to spend money on these things. It's very specific.

Caroline 26:27

Yeah.

Chris 26:28

So then as a budget analyst, you're making sure that the commanders are spending money on the intended appropriations bill and then tracking it all and seeing, well, what's used, what's unused? Can we use it for this one? Is it allowable? Do we have to get special permission to use it? So it's the, it's kind of knowing budgeting and rules from, uh, you know, congress all the way down to a soldier getting paid for, hey, this soldier needs to show up, but is that because it's regular National Guard or is that because they're about to deploy to Afghanistan, different pot of money, different training guidelines. So you'd get very different pots of money that you have to kind of keep track of what are we using this for and how much is left here, and are we allowed to do that? So, uh, a lot of advising, uh, folks on how to handle money.

Caroline 27:13

How did you get into that? So it's like you had done this electrical engineering stuff and then you'd done this infantry stuff, and then where, where along the way did this? Introduction and ability to act on that and realization that you kind of enjoyed that aspect come.

Chris 27:32

Yeah. So when I had gotten home from Iraq, I said, well, what do I wanna do if I'm gonna do something else? Uh, and I started reading on a lot of different topics and kind of exploring different things. I tried, um. I was interested in becoming a physician's assistant. So I went to EMT school and got an EMT license and I liked it, but I was like, I don't know that I love this enough to live a PA life'cause it's a, a lot of like hours and time commitment.

Caroline 27:59

Yeah.

Chris 28:00

So I tried that and then I was like, well, what do I really like? I like helping people and I also like numbers and I'm also interested in personal finance. So what about being an financial advisor? then I started exploring that, talked to some West Point grads who were financial advisors and they said, yeah, well, I mean, if you're getting out, why don't you work with us? So, when I transitioned outta the army, I got, financial licenses and started doing financial planning and saying, oh, this is where I can mix together some of the stuff I enjoy doing, which is helping people. This is the other backstory I had when I was at West Point, I had decided like, hey, I wanna be a chaplain. Like I, what I'd rather do is become a chaplain, but they weren't allowing people to go from West Point to, into chaplaincy, uh,'cause they didn't want us, the war was going on, so they didn't wanna send somebody to get a master's degree for two to three years before they could use them.

Caroline 28:58

Yeah. Yeah.

Chris 28:58

They said, all right, you get, you gotta do the infantry thing and after a while I was just like, I'm done with other people telling me where I can and can't live and having no say in a lot of my own autonomy. So, um, but I had that desire to help people on a, like a very, a spiritual personal level. Right.

Caroline 29:16

Yeah.

Chris 29:17

So there was that kind of constant thread in how I approach and think about things. And you can do that in financial planning where you're saying, okay, what do you want to do with life and how can we align financial resources so that that can happen? I get to use that, I get to use the finance interest in personal finance and what to do with money'cause that's interesting. I get to do the math stuff, some technical stuff and he'd bring it all together and ended up being a, a very good fit. Got a master's degree, uh, MBA with a major in financial planning.

Caroline 29:47

How did that come about that you decided that you wanted to get the Master's degree and,

Chris 29:52

Uh, while I was looking at, okay, what do you need to advance in a career as a financial planner? Becoming a certified financial planner is one thing, you have to take coursework for it. And it's like, well, I might want to go into management, but I also might wanna go into just staying as a financial planner. So if I got an MBA that has a major in financial planning, then I could have both and then use that if I went into like upper level management at a financial planning firm or just stayed as a one-on-one advisor. So that's what kind of made me say, all right, looking ahead for how do careers progress, what helps somebody progress.

Caroline 30:29

That's awesome.

Chris 30:30

Yeah, so that's, that's when I went and got a master's degree.

Caroline 30:34

And again, I'm impressed with your, you know, your go try it out. Like contact people in the field. This is exactly what is recommended for people to do, yet most people don't do it. They just get into something and then realize, oh, maybe I don't like it. Maybe I could have, should have asked somebody ahead of time to realize what's a day in the life like or how do they like it and, and discerning their own things. But, um, super cool.

Chris 30:57

Know until you try it on, right? Because,

Caroline 31:00

Absolutely.

Chris 31:01

You're like, oh, that's great. Like a pair, like a shirt or something, and you're like, oh, that would look good on me. And you put it on and you're like, that does not look good on me. Sometimes you just gotta wear it a little bit,

Caroline 31:09

Yeah.

Chris 31:10

You know what I mean?

Caroline 31:11

And also like listen to your own self while you're trying it, right? Because even I, I did try some of the things, like in high school, I went and shadowed a lady who was a chemical engineer,

Chris 31:22

Yeah.

Caroline 31:23

And I had a little bit of a visceral feeling of, ooh, gosh, I'm not sure I wanna work in a dark, dingy plant environment, but I overwrote it because I was thinking like, oh, no, no, no, no. I'm, I'm hearing that a lot of CEOs and companies were chemical engineers, so therefore I should start as a chemical engineer and I can do it, and I can do it well. So I think I'll override that for now, and then later it comes to, you know, it, it came up again. But, um, I'm super impressed that you tried it and listened and made your informed decisions based on data and holistically, um, all of the things. That's super cool. Okay, so now you get your, now did you do your master's degree part-time or full-time?

Chris 32:09

I did it. Full-time while working full-time. So I did it.

Caroline 32:15

So how was that? Yeah.

Chris 32:16

Yeah. I was an executive. MBA. So they would, they set it up for people that were working. So you,

Caroline 32:21

Yeah.

Chris 32:21

Like afternoons, evenings? Not, not weekends, but,

Caroline 32:26

Yeah.

Chris 32:26

Been better if it was on weekends. so I would, it, I got permission from my commander to do this'cause the, I was activated with my National Guard unit. I would wake up, on my uniform, do budget analyst stuff, change out of my uniform into a business, suit over lunch, meet with clients.

Caroline 32:44

Wow.

Chris 32:45

Put my uniform back on, finish out the duty day. I would go change clothes or just wear my uniform to class and go to. Grad school classes every semester I took three to five grad classes. So I was, I did like a three year program in like two years, two and a half years while working full-time, having two small kids. And I was stressed all the time. So,

Caroline 33:07

Yeah. Yeah. How did that work for your relationships and Yeah, yeah. Like there like, yeah. Stress the whole time. What did that stress the whole time look like?

Chris 33:17

Uh, it was being disconnected from my spouse and kids. Um, and then also wondering why I feel like I, I'm getting punched in the stomach constantly. Like, you know, it's like a gut feeling of,

Caroline 33:31

Yeah.

Chris 33:31

Just too much, uh uh, yeah. So anxiety and depression and all that stuff going on while still being very successful.

Caroline 33:39

Correct.

Chris 33:39

Multiple things at once.

Caroline 33:41

Yes.

Chris 33:42

Things suffer while you're doing that. Right. While you're trying to pull all that off.

Caroline 33:46

Yeah, it's performance, relationships, wellbeing, and I, I had spent and, and it, and it's so hard also when you're chasing that performance and you think like you're doing the right thing for your family and for your kids. Like for the long term and in the,

Chris 34:02

So many times. I was like, this is for my wife, this is for the kids. And it's like, well, maybe you should like play with them more and like spend time there and like you know?

Caroline 34:12

Yeah. Yeah. That's tricky. Okay, so then how long did that extreme stress go on before you were able to take action on it?

Chris 34:24

Yeah. It was, I mean, grad school was about two years, so it was pretty, it was pretty heavy for about two years. And then af right as I was finishing up grad school, I had one semester left. I had two to three classes and I had started the semester, but I had applied to a job up in Connecticut and we were living in Georgia at the time. So I went to Georgia State in Atlanta. We were living outside of Atlanta. And um. I said, all right, hey, I got a new job. I gotta start this job. Because I was working on straight commissions before I got activated with the National Guard. So I was still pro like taking care of my clients, but it wasn't producing very much money because I could.

Caroline 35:03

Yeah.

Chris 35:03

Care of clients. I couldn't get more.

Caroline 35:05

Yeah.

Chris 35:06

Then income was dropping and I knew that I just, I just can't stay on this commission based, like hamster wheel thing. I really gotta work at a firm where I either have a salary or, uh, they aren't constantly saying, okay, this year you have to sell this much to make this much money. Like, I just really wasn't interested in that kind of so I started working at a financial planning firm in Connecticut, a wealth management firm, moved the family up there, did some grad school. They let me do the classes remotely, which wasn't really a thing at the time. So they, they let me do it. I just had to like, write in tests and or fly down for a test or two, and I just got on a plane, flew down to Atlanta from Connecticut to do a couple tests.

Caroline 35:48

Wow.

Chris 35:48

Out the degree they let me do it, so, which was great. So, that, that worked out pretty well. And then things kind of calmed down a little bit, you know, having a more of a, you know, nine to five, nine to six kind of job.

Caroline 36:04

Yeah. More steady.

Chris 36:05

Yeah.

Caroline 36:06

Yeah.

Chris 36:07

Yeah.

Caroline 36:07

Yeah. Okay. And so now that now you are, and throughout this time while you're doing all these things you're supposed to do with chasing your performance, what about those other side interests like music, like religion related items? Were those also being fulfilled or did they get on hold for a while?

Chris 37:08

A lot of stuff was on hold, uh, especially on the music, religion side. I was having a lot of spiritual struggles from having seen combat related things and all of that. And, uh, it's pretty documented that when someone has PTSD type, uh, struggles, it often affects spirituality, negatively, uh, because it kind of does something in your brain that kind of switches that off.

Caroline 37:35

Yeah.

Chris 37:35

'Cause one of the things that switches off is the ability to connect to others in a way that is kind of spiritual. Um,

Caroline 37:41

Yeah.

Chris 37:42

So, uh, a lot of struggle with that. And then trying to figure it out through reading and like trying to fix what was probably a like, spiritual, emotional problem with intellectual, like, oh, is this real or not? Right? And trying to be more like apologetic based or like philosophy based, you know? Um. Consideration of the existence of God, the good, good and evil and all this other stuff. And it's like, well, lot of these things are interesting intellectual questions, but when it comes down to it, it's more of interrelational and emotional questions,

Caroline 38:16

Hmm.

Chris 38:17

As much an intellectual pursuit. So you keep trying to, know, fix a problem with the wrong tool and you wonder why you don't get anywhere. Uh, so,

Caroline 38:26

Yeah. And so how did you, how did you go around that whole thing? Because I think that's something that a lot of people, and they may not even realize, maybe they, they can't connect what the PTSD experience was or why all of a sudden they're, you know, and of course questioning is part of somebody's, um, development and all of that. But then how did you work your way around or through?

Chris 38:47

Yeah. So it's an ongoing process and part of it is learning that, um, spirituality is a of a process and a journey, and it isn't a once and done thing. You say a prayer and then you're in the club kind of thing or you just learn some rules and if you follow them, everything's gonna be fine. That's not really how life works, right? So learning to think in a, uh, like broader context has been part of that ongoing journey. So not trying to find answers.'cause if you find the correct answer, then you have the right solution, everything will be fine, that's very engineer. With intolerance, right? And it's like, well, you know, we don't want a lot of tolerance like an electrical engineering. There's certain tolerances that are fine, other that are not, like heat is always bad in electrical engineering. It just degrades everything and everything melts and then things degrade, right? so, um, trying to go from a no tolerance type scenario to a tolerance for potentially really bad things happening or really good things happening and being okay with it, is kind of part of that journey now, right? And more of a, um, a maturing because we learn esp, if you're raised in a religious context, you receive religious information, thought and feelings. With the mind of a child. then if you don't let those things mature as you mature, you will wonder why there is a disconnect between, um, perhaps how you approach life and your spirituality if there's a disconnect, because of different, different maturity levels.

Caroline 40:28

Hmm.

Chris 40:28

Are kind of existing within you. You're like, I'm mature in one area, but this other area I'm completely immature or I don't know how to get to the, maybe immature is a little too judgy. Maybe it's more like, I don't know what the next step is. Like how do you be a mature spiritual person.

Caroline 40:40

Yeah. Yeah. And so how did you go about diving into that?

Chris 40:46

Uh, talking, So some of this is getting out of my own head and talking to people, right?

Caroline 40:52

Hmm.

Chris 40:53

Hearing their experiences and also from people that would be a little outside of what would be my close religious circle. Right? So that way you kind of get different, the difference in perspectives and often people will be in a different religious circle because they just experience something different. It's not necessarily about a set of beliefs.'Cause most people are not particularly interested in assenting to lists of beliefs. you ask someone, well, what's the difference between a Methodist and a Catholic? like, well, the services are kind of different, but I couldn't really tell you. That's probably what you'll get most of the time where I was raised that way, right? Most people are not as interested in it. They'll have a feeling or some way that they engage with it, is kind of the differentiator for them. So saying, okay, you are from a free Methodist church versus a regular Methodist. Like what is your spirituality like? Um, and seeing differences in how. There are probably broader ways of thinking. Some of the churches that I went to growing up were pretty fundamentalist, so they a lot of black and white thinking that, uh, eventually needs to be expanded to, right? If we're gonna deal, if we're gonna treat life with wisdom, which is skillful living, knowing how to deal when situations are not black and white is what wisdom is, right? And we're encouraged as Christians in scripture, it says, be wise, you know, and it's like, if you're only taught this thing in a black and white way, or the people around you tend to do that, um, that can be very, um, get a little lost, right? Um,'cause you, you feel unmoored. It's like, oh, if I just anchor to these tenets of truth, then you'll always be fine. It's like, anchors are not connected to a ship with a, with a bar of iron, right? It's a chain that can float.

Caroline 42:48

Yep.

Chris 42:48

Be connected to something real, but there's gotta be some floating. Otherwise the ship is gonna like sink end up under the water. Right?

Caroline 42:56

Yeah.

Chris 42:57

How do we have that flexibility and floating within a range of what's, true, meaningful in those kinds of things has really been part of that maturing process.

Caroline 43:06

And again, it's like you, you're starting to have questions in an area of your life and your go-to is, let me get a little bit outside of myself and let me start having conversations with others in different perspectives. And then that is helping you to decide your own path by considering those perspectives of other people too, as you're going along your journey. This is a really, it's, it's quite, and because in some ways a bit of what you're doing now is being that helpful person on the other side of the question to help somebody through their journey and, and you have that desire again to wanna help, because that's been one of the ways that's been so, so helping to you. So how did you go from working in a firm or are you still working in a firm or it's your own firm now?

Chris 44:01

I own my own firm now because one of the firms I worked at, they, this is in 2016, they said the future is just talking to your advisor over the phone or on Zoom or so, or they didn't have Zoom at the time, like go to meeting, I guess, or Skype. Uh, so they didn't, this is pre pandemic and they're like, we're gonna close down all the face-to-face offices.

Caroline 44:24

Hmm.

Chris 44:24

Everybody off basically, or said, come work in a call center. And I was like, oh, hell no. I'm not working in a call center. Like I had,

Caroline 44:32

This is about to take away from my freedom and autonomy a little bit here. Yeah.

Chris 44:36

Yes, freedom and autonomy and never seen your clients. I love seeing clients in person. Um, and I said, all right, well, they said, well, if you're not gonna use, we'll give you a severance package and then, you know, have a nice life. So, and I said, all right. wanted to have my own firm is now the time to do it. My wife said, you should just do it. And I said, all right, here we go. So, starting with no clients,'cause we couldn't, you know, solicit other clients, uh, from the firm, start from zero, start a firm, and then we've been, we're going on almost 10 years this year, so we'll be 10 years in September. So,

Caroline 45:11

Yeah. And, and does your wife do something related to financial planning as well, or she's just super supportive?

Chris 45:15

She was just very supportive. My wife, uh, was at first an elementary school music teacher, and then we have a son with special needs, so she had to stay home with him for a number of years. And now she is finishing up her master's degree to be a therapist.

Caroline 45:31

Oh wow. So cool. Again on this very helping people, um, trajectory. That's amazing. Okay, so you start your own firm, um, and you've already have all these processes in place and you've been doing, you know, budgeting and, and financial planning for a long time at that point. And then where did it come into play that you're like, you know, I think that a book would help out this part.

Chris 45:58

Yeah, I always kind of wanted to write a book and you know, people would tell you, oh yeah, everybody should write a book, shows your expertise and all this stuff. And I was like, well, that's not really why I, I enjoy teaching people. it's fun for me to teach. I like seeing the lights come on with people, like in client meetings. Like,

Caroline 46:14

Yeah.

Chris 46:15

Like instead of just saying, here's the facts about how the stock market works, or Here's why you should buy this type of insurance and not that type,'cause this one isn't particularly good, of seeing like, well, where's the client at in their knowledge? And where do we need to get them to? What's in their best interests? How do I explain it in a way that's easy to understand? So I don't have to teach them everything.

Caroline 46:36

Yeah.

Chris 46:36

They still feel comfortable, right? So it's that skill set. I said that would be really good if I could take that and translate it into a book.'Cause I could help more people. I could only work with so many people individually. I'm starting to run out of slots, right? I, I, we take care of 75, roughly 75 families right now, and I'm kind of running outta space. We just hired a new advisor at the firm to help out with that. But it's like, I've learned a lot through having done this for, you know, almost 17 years now. Maybe I, how can I still help people outside of me just doing it? And that's where the book comes from, is, all right, what have I learned that, you know, when an advisor says you're gonna be fine to retire, but the client doesn't feel it or believe it and therefore they have restrictive spending. And you, I'll see, this goes back to the, you know, my mother's early death and stuff. I am much more aware of mortality than many people are.

Caroline 47:27

Yeah.

Chris 47:28

Real, real way.'cause I've seen people die from my West Point classmates dying in combat to, you know, like my mother passing and seeing, okay, I see clientele die with millions of dollars and worry the whole time and never really used it to engage in a meaningful life outside of themselves.

Caroline 47:49

Um.

Chris 47:49

Then it's like heartbreaking to see that. And you say, well, how can I help people realize you're gonna be okay? if things go off the rails, there are ways that we can deal with that. Like, there we're not gonna all just end up in a van down by the river to. You know, reference the SNL skit.

Caroline 48:05

Yeah.

Chris 48:06

We're, there are ways that we can adapt as humans as life throws challenges at us. But what is meaningful? What is purposeful to you? And then how can we relieve the worries? You know, I've had clients who have tens of millions of dollars say to me, I still feel like I could lose it all tomorrow. And it's not like there all their money's in stocks. Like we have safe investments too. It's like,

Caroline 48:28

Yeah.

Chris 48:29

Know, they just have that the other shoe is gonna drop feeling how can we address that? And some just common persistent questions that I hear constantly having worked with, I dunno, probably like a thousand people at this point, and hearing their, their financial life story.

Caroline 48:44

Yeah.

Chris 48:45

How can we consolidate those and then just address those fears head on one at a time in a way that gives people, um, something practical to do.'cause sometimes we just read a book and it's like self helpy, but then I never do anything with it.

Caroline 48:59

Right.

Chris 49:00

So the

Caroline 49:01

Yeah.

Chris 49:01

As we're gonna talk, we're gonna have a little client story, and then we're gonna talk about a little bit of the technicals inside the story. But usually it's the client's worried about this. What are some ways that we can calm that worry down? And what's the source of the worry? And then write yourself how you are going to do it right? And how are,

Caroline 49:20

I loved it.

Chris 49:20

Your own life.

Caroline 49:21

It's very, it's very, um, approachable.'cause at first you're like, ah, man, this is a little bit thick and now we're gonna talk about.

Chris 49:29

Thick.

Caroline 49:30

Confronting my retire. But, and even though it's thick, that's because it's so, but, but yet each chapter is not like horrible. It's like you're saying, it's just, it's action oriented, it's approachable. You can do it in small little nuggets, and then you have like your own little workbook of like, okay, now how are you gonna apply this to your thing and do it? And I like the even, you know, as you're trying to say like, what do you want your retirement to look like? Like, hey, why don't we just start to actively plan out what could two weeks of it look like for you? You know? And then how does that, how do I, how does that work? I thought it was like super practical and approachable now. But I also have to say, you know, you tried to, to do that a little bit in West Point and go into that personal development and leadership thing, and it was so, uh, not aligned with what you wanted to do in that moment to write a 10 page paper. And now here we are, decades later, a 384 page awesome resource. So how was, how was that writing process? Or was it. Was it taxing or was it encouraging?'Cause you're choosing it all on your own, you know?

Chris 50:40

Both. Yeah.

Caroline 50:42

Yeah.

Chris 50:42

And,

Caroline 50:43

Yeah.

Chris 50:44

Yeah. So the writing process started out with me attempting to write something and then, then I would, I came up with a somewhat of an outline, said, okay, I'm gonna try to write on this. And then the book started to be technical. I'm like. You know what? Chat GPT could probably write half of this. I'm like, let's see what Chat GPT comes up with. And I would have it like write the, I was trying to have it write the boring stuff.

Caroline 51:07

Yeah.

Chris 51:07

Like which is what is an annuity? And I'm like, all right, chat GPT, summarize an annuity like this. And then I came up with some version of a book and it was terrible. like, this is not good. I need help. So I hired a company that Book Launchers, which has been a great experience and they can work at you with that. However you wanna do it, you can totally write it yourself and then use their editors. You can work with an author that can help you, like put your words into something that someone else would wanna read.

Caroline 51:36

Yeah.

Chris 51:36

You can do a combination. So we end up with a combination of, alright, we're gonna outline things. This is the topics I wanna talk about. Here's my attempt to write it. We just threw out the Chat GPT stuff. It was like, it was too technical and there's too many technical books out there already. Nobody.

Caroline 51:51

Right.

Chris 51:52

They need to say, okay, why do I still worry about money? Can I do something about it?

Caroline 51:56

Yep.

Chris 51:56

What we want to do, which kind of wasn't out there. So write an outline and then we'd say, all right, bullet 0.1. And then I would do a sub outline, write some things, and then, one of the writers would interview me, look at what I had written, and then merge what the interview stuff, what I had written and what they write,

Caroline 52:15

Oh, nice.

Chris 52:15

One thing. And,

Caroline 52:16

Nice.

Chris 52:17

A whole writeup of that ended up being a 75 or 80 page book. And I said, all right, it's not. I mean, it's there, but it's not particularly readable and not super interesting. It's kind of there, it's not right. So we got a second writer to do the same thing all over again. We took that initial draft, all the interviews all over again, redid the outline, and then got to the point where I'm like, why don't we just make it a workbook? Or we talk about a topic and then the person does something with it.

Caroline 52:44

Yeah.

Chris 52:44

Read the book again. So it's just like three to four iterations over two years to get it to this. And I couldn't have done it without, you know, the team of people helping.'Cause I probably would've stopped. Um,

Caroline 52:55

It's, it's really well done. it's a helpful, practical workbook covering so many different areas. Right, because'cause you're like, you're set. Yeah.'Cause there's money and there's worrying about money and there's what do I wanna do next? And not just with my money, but with my life and my time and my relationships. And you hit on every single one of those. So tell me some people who've had the book, how does that help them through your process and so that you can, you know, give them the best advice?

Chris 53:30

Yeah, so we have had a couple of people, um, that have read it and if they're, even if they're already working with financial advisors, like it's so helpful to think about like, what do I actually want to do with myself? And then like, maybe quiet those worries down a little bit. And I actually gave the book to my advisor, like, I'm like,

Caroline 53:48

Yeah.

Chris 53:48

This is not written for me to like steal clients from advisors. I don't need that. We can do that with, you know, you do use marketing budget for that nonsense. This is. How can we communicate as people in community about money and what we're afraid of and how to live a good life, right? That's the goal. And if it's between you and your spouse, that's where we wanna start. If it's you and your advisor, that's where we wanna start, right? So using it as a tool to facilitate conversation is a core tenant in the book. And I even communicated that, Hey, if you're like struggling with these thoughts in your head all the time, get outta your head. Talk to people for us. Little study group, read the book, whatever you want to do, but getting community.'cause as Americans, we very much like to work on our own independent. And I relate to that. I'm a very independent person, but without community, we lose some of the things that we are genetically kind of engineered for.

Caroline 54:39

Yes.

Chris 54:39

Community. And it's dangerous to go alone.

Caroline 54:42

Yes.

Chris 54:42

We need some community around us. So a lot of people have seen that there's the community aspect that's strong. And I've had clients that were thinking about retiring. Just say, okay, I'm doing this now and here's my timeline for it. And just like actually be the catalyst to just, they're there, but they're not jumping out. Right. They're not jumping out the plane door voluntarily. Right. They would've to be kicked out of the airplane for parachuting.

Caroline 55:07

Yes, yes. Yes.

Chris 55:08

We do that and you get kicked out if you're not supposed to. Uh. If you just freeze in the door,'cause you're scared to jump, somebody will place a boot strategically on your hindquarters and you will be float floating pretty soon.

Caroline 55:19

Yeah.

Chris 55:20

So it helps some people voluntarily say, this is what I'm gonna do next, this is how I'm thinking about it. And, uh, it's been really great to see people like, open alive. Like, okay, I'm not just retiring to die, right? Or I'm not just retiring because I hate my job. Don't run away from work. Like run towards retirement, right? Run,

Caroline 55:42

Yes.

Chris 55:42

Next phase of whatever it is, and help and have some agency in that. Like, life happens to you, but you can happen to life, right? Like you, there's an directiveness to it and you can be dealt with some bad cards, but also some good cards. You gotta play what you're dealt, but don't be an idiot about it, right? Like, know when to hold'em, know when to fold them. It's a song.

Caroline 56:02

Right. Right, right.

Chris 56:03

You know? So seeing people, um, take the book and say, okay, this part was super helpful, um, and just made me think differently of, oh, I can do this. Or if I'm worrying are those, should I just confront the worries or do I actually have something to be worried about? And where should I get help if there's worries, right? Like, just sit there worrying.

Caroline 56:23

Yeah.

Chris 56:23

A stagnation that can kind of occur of stagnating, let's get going and do stuff.

Caroline 56:29

I love it. I love it. Now, I'm curious, how has your definition of success changed over time? Like when you were really little, what did you think it was to be a successful adult? What did you think from that vantage point? And then I'm curious, we'll go into after that.

Chris 56:47

I, so I think some with my religious background, success was kind of, um, it's like you wanna be a competent, good person. Success wasn't something to be chased, right? It was almost like a negative. So, but even though we admired people that were successful. So it was a little bit of mixed messages probably, and that's just me interpreting it as, you know.

Caroline 57:14

Yeah.

Chris 57:15

Basically. Um, and it's saying, you know, people trust in money, right? And they put, they act like money will solve all their problems, and it doesn't, it solves some problems and creates others, right?

Caroline 57:23

Yeah.

Chris 57:24

Uh, and just like relationships solve and create all kinds of problems, right? You're not as lonely in a relationship or maybe you are, maybe you're more lonely than you started, right? There's these things that we seek after and, seeking to fill a hole or, you know, scratch a niche or serve a function, right? That serves some function for us. And then put, there's always the pro and the con right to something. There's,

Caroline 57:48

Yeah.

Chris 57:48

Balance to it. so I'd never really thought, oh, I'd be successful if I was this. It's more like I have a drive, like an internal drive to do something and I just want to do it.

Caroline 58:01

Hmm.

Chris 58:02

Like, so it was very, I, I feel like I have more internal motivation, um, and it's towards a particular goal. So I'm, I'm not goal driven as much of, I'd like to hit this number by the state. Sometimes I'm like that, but it's more like, I wanna become a really good financial planner. What does that look like? And I'm just gonna go do it until I'm, I feel like I'm there.

Caroline 58:24

Yeah.

Chris 58:25

So success is more about doing, I think, and, um, now it's shifted to more about how am I being as I'm doing.

Caroline 58:35

Oh, nice. Yeah. So your authentic success is not just the doing, it's the being while you're doing and, and for you, how do you want to be while you are doing?

Chris 58:44

Yeah. I don't wanna be stressed all the time. And,

Caroline 58:46

Yeah.

Chris 58:47

You know, dealing with, oh, I gotta like the, uh, compulsion to work almost where it's like, I gotta work, I gotta do, I gotta do, I gotta do, and it's like, okay, if you were. Take that doing part and calm yourself down, uh, a little bit. What would that look like? Right? What if you were more engaged with people less en engaged with tasks? Uh, and if you prioritized some downtime on the weekends and not, oh, I'm gonna start a high stress project next on the, in my free time, which is often what I do. So, uh, you know, it's like I write a book. And then move offices and then renovate a building and then hire a new employee and train dogs and do music. And it's like, alright, you're doing a lot of stuff, but how are you while you're doing it? And if the answer's sometimes fine, but sometimes not good at all, then how are we consistently getting towards what does it look like to be fine most of the time? You don't have to be fine all the time. This whole, like, you can be content all the time or happy all the time isn't really a thing.

Caroline 59:47

Right.

Chris 59:48

But I don't think you should be miserable all the time either, even when you're externally successful,

Caroline 59:53

Yeah.

Chris 59:54

So, um, those of us that learned how to, um, display to others that we are successful by either how we present ourselves, carry ourselves, or the things that we do, um, sometimes we learn to hide, mask the other. Like, I don't really feel connected with my spouse. Stuff that needs to be fixed.

Caroline 1:00:13

Yeah.

Chris 1:00:14

I mean, you can't show that in a business context necessarily anyway. But then you learn like, okay, I should get help about this. And then you start getting help and then saying, all right, I'm gonna like work on my relationships and learn how to talk to my spouse in a way where our, our communication gears don't grind.

Caroline 1:00:32

Right, right.

Chris 1:00:33

And on those things. Um, and not just being super task success oriented with, with tasks, but also my way of being and, and what is it like to be around me right?

Caroline 1:00:46

Yes, yes.

Chris 1:00:47

Not working.'Cause I can be a good person to work with. I'm usually a good coworker, I think other people would say, but sometimes I feel like I'm not working, then I don't know what to do with myself. So I'm like, um. Kinda like a, uh, they call'em working line dogs. They're like police dogs that if they're not chasing or biting something, they don't know what to do. So they chew a hole through the wall.

Caroline 1:01:08

Oh yeah.

Chris 1:01:09

Of me. It's,

Caroline 1:01:10

Yeah.

Chris 1:01:10

Know what to do with myself, so I'm gonna just break something. I'll bite somebody. I shouldn't, but, you know, I got some energy, I gotta get rid of it.

Caroline 1:01:19

Yeah.

Chris 1:01:19

I'm a, I'm a little bit of a working line dog where I like to work. Um, but I also need to learn how to chill out.'cause sometimes, you know, if you ask the owner of a working line dog, sometimes people will accidentally adopt them. Uh, and then they're like, my dog never chills. It doesn't know how to settle. And then you have to train the dog to settle. So as I do drug training kind as a hobby, it's like, okay, you gotta teach some dogs how to settle. And I have to kind of do that to myself.

Caroline 1:01:46

That's, but that's again, it's so cool that you're like recognizing that, right? And admitting that and then working on it.'cause there's so many people that, that, uh, they don't, they just override it. And you're like, I'm fine and everybody else is the problem. Versus like, oh, maybe there is something in my own life outside of, you know, what I do, but who I am that I can improve on. So that's, that's super.

Chris 1:02:12

There were times when I was very like, you know, I'm fine the way I am, and then you're like, well, why are you suffering all the time? Then it's like, well, okay.

Caroline 1:02:21

Yeah. Yeah, yeah. Yeah. For how long do you wanna choose the suffering versus, um, finding that, that relief points? What's, um, how do people work with you? How do they find you? How do they work with you? How do they get this awesome book?

Chris 1:02:36

So they can find the book on Amazon or Barnes and Noble or anywhere you get, uh, you get eBooks or you can order physical copy if you want. I do recommend, soft cover a copy or the hard cover so you can write in it. If not, just like print out the page or, you know, take a screenshot of it with your phone and write on it.'Cause the writing and doing of the book is really important. and then if someone wants to see if, or like, hey Chris, I like your approach to how you think about money and life, then they could look at Greatpath.com. That's where tells a little bit about my firm and the, uh, other folks I work with to, make sure people are on a good path, a great path, right? And it's like, what is the path of your life look like? Can we help you untangle that golden knot like, oh, I, I want, I'm trying to follow the golden thread of my life, but I keep hitting a knot, right? It's like tangling up. we get that untangled so I can keep moving forward and following my sense of purpose? and then what are the technical aspects of that that we need to do? So my website talks a little bit about, about that as well, if somebody's interested in working with the firm.

Caroline 1:03:41

What's next for you? What's on your horizon of what you'd love to do in the next X period of time?

Chris 1:03:48

So we're, we're just starting to work on podcast YouTube content.

Caroline 1:03:53

Hmm.

Chris 1:03:54

So we're gonna start with the book and kind of do a read with me through the book. Maybe not actually reading it. Maybe I will. I don't know.'cause the,

Caroline 1:04:00

Awesome.

Chris 1:04:01

It's

Caroline 1:04:01

Yeah.

Chris 1:04:02

Five to 10 pages. A lot of the chapters that you could read it in like minutes out loud probably.

Caroline 1:04:08

Yeah.

Chris 1:04:09

Kind of show examples of people working through different aspects of the book or me talking with someone about it. Just so people have, like, if they don't have a community they can do it in, they have a little bit of interaction with it. And then kind of expanding, you know, the people that we can help through, watch some YouTube content and say, okay. What are the things people struggle with when they transition into retirement? How do I make sure I don't become an alcoholic accidentally? It happens sometimes, you know, how do I make sure I don't get divorced right at retirement? Also, a thing that happens'cause you don't know what to do with yourself now that you're not working and you drive your spouse crazy. Um, you know, so,

Caroline 1:04:42

Yeah.

Chris 1:04:43

Seeing examples of it. So that's one thing we're working on. Um, uh, and looking to do some more dog training too on the side. I'm about to take a course on how to train service dogs, so,

Caroline 1:04:55

So cool.

Chris 1:04:56

Yeah, so some stuff on the outside of work as well as a big push.

Caroline 1:05:01

I love it. I want to thank you so much for sharing more of your story, your journey. Thank you for this amazing resource, for this beautiful conversation. And I will put all the links, in the show notes as well. But thank you, Chris. This has been just a beautiful, amazing experience to have you on the podcast. I know you're gonna help so many more lives,

Chris 1:05:22

Oh good. I'm glad it was helpful and it was good talking with you.

Caroline 1:05:25

Chris, thank you. I appreciate the way you approach retirement planning and your insight that a strong plan doesn't always calm the nervous system on its own.

1:05:35

Thanks for listening to your next success with Dr. Caroline Sangal. Remember, authentic success is yours to define and includes aligning your career to support the life you want.