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When was the last time you felt real awe? And what if that feeling is a career clue? Chris Baron followed the signal from science and sales into documentary filmmaking and his work has taken him Inside volcanoes, deep into caves, and at the top of skyscrapers. If you've been successful on paper, but wondering about what could be, this episode is for you. This is the Your Next Success podcast, and I am your host, Dr. Caroline Sangal I am a life first career coach and strategist on a mission to normalize questioning your career because I believe each of us is made on purpose for a purpose only we can fulfill. The longer we live out of alignment with who we are, what we do best, and why we are here, the more we miss out and the more the world misses out on what only we can give the Your Next Success Podcast is where we explore how to build a career that truly fuels your life. We talk about self-discovery, smart job, search strategies, professional growth. And you will hear stories from people who have navigated big career transitions themselves. So you can create a life first career and become your own version of authentic success, one that is aligned, meaningful, and truly yours. Chris Baron is an award-winning filmmaker, storyteller, and host of the podcast, No Ordinary Monday. He is the founder and director of Frontier Films and has spent more than a decade creating documentaries that bring science, nature, and adventure to life for global audiences. His work includes projects for National Geographic, Disney Plus, Curiosity Stream and the BBC, including living inside a volcano for One Strange Rock and leading series like Evolve and Lift the Ice. Some careers look impressive and still feel wrong inside your own skin. That disconnect is information not failure. In today's episode, you'll hear how Chris built a career shaped by awe and curiosity. You'll hear the moment he realized success on paper didn't feel right inside, why he walked away from a major bonus to take an unpaid internship, and how that decision led to documentary filmmaking you'll also hear why awe isn't just inspiration, it's information and how paying attention to what makes you feel alive can become a powerful guide for your own career decisions. If you've been doing the right things and still feel a quiet pull towards something more aligned, this conversation is for you.

Caroline: 2:56

Welcome Chris to Your Next Success. Just looking at the multitude of different places your journey has gone I am so, so excited. Thank you for being here. Yeah,

Chris Baron: 3:09

Thank you Caroline, for having me on. It's a real pleasure to be on the show.

Caroline: 3:12

Awesome. I love talking about careers, career transitions, people's journey as it unfolds, and yours is going to be spectacular. But if we could dial it way back at first, help us understand like where were you born, what was life like for really young Chris?

Chris Baron: 3:31

Well, this is, this is a usual conversation I have with people. I meet someone for the first time, for example, and they're like, oh, where are you from? And I either have to give them the short version. If it's just someone I'm like, oh, I'll just meet you in small talk and we go again. Or if it's someone significant, I'll be okay. I'll give you the full story. Because it's you, Caroline I'll give you the full story.

Caroline: 3:48

Oh, I love it. Thanks. Thanks, Chris.

Chris Baron: 3:49

I was born in Perth, Australia. Um, I don't have an Australian accent. I probably have, I guess some people might call a soft Scottish lilt, and slash an international accent. But, so I was born Australia and my mom is Australian, my dad is Scottish. When I was about 18 months old, my family moved from, from Australia to Dubai and we were there till I was maybe three or four, I can't remember. This is, I don't even have a memory of it. It was that, that long ago. I have very faint memories of it.

Caroline: 4:19

Firstly it's just already starting to be fascinating because your mom was from Australia, your dad was from Scotland. So it's just like, wait, how'd that happen? And then, and, and then, you know, at 18 months old, we just choose to move to Dubai. Like, what did they do for work that allowed this?

Chris Baron: 4:36

Travel? Well, my dad is a geologist and so he worked in the energy business. And started working in the oil industry in Scotland, and he was transferred or moved from Scotland to Australia, but was still within, the energy business. And, met my mom when he was in Australia and had me, and then I think he got another job posting again in Dubai and another one. So it's a very traveling sort of, a lot of it's either when I say my background, people go, okay, you're either one of two things. You're either a military brat or an oil and gas brat. So it's kind of both of those sort of my parents' careers. It could have been one or the other because they travel so much. So by the time I was five I think, or so I was living in Houston, Texas.

Caroline: 5:17

and was your mom also working?

Chris Baron: 5:20

So she would find jobs wherever ah we ended up. So, you know, in Houston for example, she worked as a travel agent for an Australian uh, travel agency because she knew Australia so well and a lot of American uh, clients were like, oh, you know, go to Australia. And her knowledge was, was obviously, you know, great for that. And then when she was in Dubai, she'd work in like a medical clinic, things like that. So, um, but it was really following my dad's career around. And also raising my brother and I, you know, which as you can appreciate, is probably a full-time job raising two boys.

Caroline: 5:51

Yes. Full-time excitement. And I feel like each individual day might be really challenging, but then the times where I can reflect back on the past week, the past month, the past year, the past decade, it's like, oh, wow, that was awesome. But when I'm overtired,

Chris Baron: 6:11

I'm sure there's all sorts of things that my mom would like to say right now, but

Caroline: 6:15

Perhaps. Right. But maybe now at this point, she's just so daggone proud of you. She, all she remembers is the amazing stuff.'cause it's a little bit removed. All right, so now you're like, we're back to five years old. You're in Houston, Texas. And, what did you love doing in that early age?

Chris Baron: 6:35

As a kid, you kind of just go with the flow. You know? I think that, as a child you just go, okay, great, we're, you know, we're going, going to a new place and you turn up in a new place and you're in a new school and you're adapting and you're meeting new people and know, it's, it's exciting, you know, and I was a energetic kid running around, so I got into sports all the time and it was easy with sports'cause you would just make friends really easily. It was all just effortless in, in that regard. Um, I remember, Houston being, an exciting place. I got into like Tex-Mex food and all that sort of stuff growing up. And we lived in, sort of like one of the places we lived was kind of close to a bayou so I was like get on my bike and go down to the bayou and there's like a rope swing into the water and just kinda getting into trouble and like, you know, nothing serious, but just being boys, It was great. It was super exciting. I, I loved Houston and, and fully enough, once I left when I was a little bit older and did my other travels, and then I came back for a shoot when I was kind of in my like mid twenties and we kinda traveling around the same streets and nothing had changed and some things had changed but other things hadn't changed, it was such a blast from the past.

Caroline: 7:40

Did you find the rope swing?

Chris Baron: 7:43

No, we didn't find the rope swing, but we drove past my old house, Was kind of really exciting, cos we used to sort of live on this fun little road and all the neighbors we used to play like street hockey and stuff it was super fun memories back then.

Caroline: 7:55

That's awesome. And where did you, where did you go for vacation? That's the other thing I always wonder with these like big, international traveling families, like do you just stay at home or do you go to some other remarkably fascinating place?

Chris Baron: 8:10

No, we were very, very fortunate. I grew up as in a middle class family, so we would probably have like, a nice international vacation, every year. So I think maybe when I was six or seven one of my first big memories of a vacation was when my dad took us to a place called Angel Fire, and I think that is a ski resort in, New Mexico maybe. it was the first I'd ever tried skiing. I was just enamored with this idea of like getting on these two planks and like screaming down a hill at a million miles an hour and terrifying my mother so we, we went skiing and I remember going to Egypt when, I was far too young to appreciate it. I had a great time. But you know like I was, 11 or 12 and, you know, it was fun seeing the pyramids, but you just don't appreciate the, the yeah. how lucky you are to sort of be in these places, um, when you're, when you're a child, you know, and going back for, shoot again, I, I went back to Egypt a couple of times for, for filming projects and just being immersed in a different way, you know, and going, oh man, I was here when I was a kid, but I just didn't appreciate it. We had some fantastic holidays, growing up and sometimes they were just in the states as well. I remember one amazing one, we took a, an RV from Houston and we drove up all the way through like, all the way to Yosemite and all these different national parks with my family and one of our friends' family.

Caroline: 9:31

And are you still friends?

Chris Baron: 9:33

Yeah, yeah. Friends of my parents' family, so they didn't have kids at the time.

Caroline: 9:37

Ah, but still getting in an RV, right? With others can be a make or break experience. And yet also I think like for your development of growing up like this, this kind of, exploration, it was already happening at a young age and adapting to the environment that you're in and just kind of like getting along and enjoying and being peaceful like these are. I mean, is it nature or nurture? I don't know. But it was cool that from a really young age, you were able to develop some of these things that have been absolutely foundational for some of the experiences that you have now, though

Chris Baron: 10:18

A hundred percent. And again, we were so lucky, um, to have those opportunities. But I do remember that we did a lot of traveling, but I was always the one pushing to, to go further. You know, like we went to the Grand Canyon for example, and I was, I remember, and I was maybe, I can't remember how old, nine, eight, something like that and there was like a, we got to the Grand Canyon, we were at the top and there was a trail that goes down to the bottom where you go all the way down to the bottom of the Grand Canyon. And I remember being distraught because my dad was like, no, no, we can't go down, we need water. You need, it's gonna take like an entire day. And I was like, no, we can go. We can go. I wanna go. And just wanting to like push the boundaries of like, you know, what we can go and explore. So that was always, and it's still a part of me, it's kind of like, you know, you get to the edge of where you're supposed to go, whether its a cave or a climbing a tree when I was a kid or, or whatever. And be like, I just want to go a little bit further.

Caroline: 11:11

What's on the other side? What's down there now? When did you get introduced to starting to capture what was happening around you? Like photography or videos or any of that? Like when, when did that piece enter the picture?

Chris Baron: 11:30

So when I was about, um, I'm guessing about 11 or so, we'd left Houston another big move, and we'd gone back to Dubai. So that was kind of for my early school and then moving into high school. So I actually, didn't finish my elementary school in, in the, in the States so I had to like go to the American school in Dubai and then decide whether I'm gonna stay in the American system or go to the British system. And eventually my parents decided they're gonna swap me to the British system. So I had to rejig of my curriculum and, and take extra French classes because I'd learned Spanish

Caroline: 12:04

What were the big differences I guess? English class was more proper?

Chris Baron: 12:08

I can't remember. I mean, I remember, sport was big in both of them. I mean, the French and Spanish thing was big because obviously I think, you know, those two curriculums are, are massive and apart from that, I can't really remember to be honest. The British system felt more structured in some way. but yeah, um, I, I do have interesting memories of, of having to swap curriculums that sort of, um, a key key point in my development.

Caroline: 12:35

Yeah. And also though being introduced to different languages as well.

Chris Baron: 12:41

And we had to learn Arabic when we went to that school as well. I think it was state mandated that you have the schools have to teach Arabic. And so I did learn a little bit of Arabic and a little bit of French and have a little bit of Spanish and so you have a little taste of all these languages.

Caroline: 12:54

But how, how phenomenal has that also been? Just some of these things that you were immersed in as a child become pretty useful as you know, all these places all over the world.

Chris Baron: 13:05

I learned little snippets of all of them, but not enough to have, like, you know, I couldn't have a full conversation in Spanish anymore. I could maybe have a broken conversation in French. I could maybe say like a few words in Arabic because I don't use'em regularly enough. I'm in an Indonesian now and learning, you know, Bahasa Indonesian. It gives you the sort of, you lose that fear of like trying to dive into new language. I guess it's not as daunting, You learn a lot of languages the same way, you know, through the basics and the numbers and the sort of basic vocabulary and your standard greetings and stuff. So you kind of have a little bit of like a root path, Through each of them. So you go, okay, great. I know where to start and I know sort of how to, how to learn the bits. I just have to learn what this particular language, how it works.

Caroline: 13:46

And I feel like there's a lot in communication that it doesn't necessarily matter what language someone's speaking. You can kind of tell what they're saying a bit, right. If they're talking about you in a kind or an unkind way, you pick up on that, you know?

Chris Baron: 13:59

Yep. Well, it's interesting, the body language, huge amount of our communications through body language. And so I, I play soccer here with, um, you know, a bunch of Indonesian guys and not all of them speak English. So i'm going out there communicating in my broken Indonesian and then obviously they're having full conversations in indonesian sometimes about me,'cause I'll hear my name come up But they're all very friendly. You can kind of know a little bit what they're saying. Yeah, you're right.

Caroline: 14:26

Okay, so we were talking about also you switch back to Dubai and now from the American and the British system, and then, but I'm still curious, like where did this photography seed

Chris Baron: 14:37

Yes, that's, where the photography, thank you for reminding me. Okay, so we are in Dubai and this is the strangest thing. So I remember being, and I must have been 12 or so by this point. And we did some exam or some sort of, assessment and I think it was like, not even like a school assessment, but it's like, are you a visual person or are you an auditory person? And I remember always thinking in my head like, I'm a visual person, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah. But then the test told me, you're an auditory person. And I'm like, absolutely not. This is ridiculous. And it almost sort of further pushed me. It was like, I'm gonna be a visual person. And I think, I don't know, I think like internet was. Be getting up at that time. And the Flickr was like a photo website that some people may remember. I started going onto there and I got into like black and white photography. And then I started talking to my dad about it, and they bought me this really, you know, very cheap, digital camera, which is one of the first digital cameras in the days. And I remember just going for hours down to the beach in Dubai and experimenting with different photos. I could take long exposure, short exposure, black and white color. I just love the medium, And I still, you know, now that I'm in podcasting, I'm like, maybe I am an auditor, auditory person doing all the sound design and stuff. But I've kind of come to terms with that now, going full circle Through the visual medium of, of documentaries. But I remember just being so proud when I took a photo and I'm like, that's a cool photo. And then showing someone else and they're like, wow, that is a cool photo. And it's something as simple as that of someone else recognizing that you're like, that is cool. You know, you created something that's interesting and I think that for me, photography is very much like a, it can evoke emotions. And I think I learned that at an age where I was, you know, teen, you know, becoming a preteen, teenager developing emotions for the first time, complex emotions, and then looking at photos and seeing black and white. It was always black and white photography for some reason with me. And I felt like it, they told stories, in a single image that you didn't have to have words or moving pictures to, to sort of feel.

Caroline: 16:40

Yeah.

Chris Baron: 16:41

I think subconsciously I was like, this is really cool. And I've, I've always been, I've always had a camera at some point, you know, um, throughout my life. And, just loved, loved the visual medium, creating stuff.

Caroline: 16:52

Oh, that's so cool. And in school, were you developing a fascination for storytelling with words as well? Or how did that come, I mean, a picture's worth a thousand words, right? So imagine how many words you've already captured.

Chris Baron: 17:08

Yeah, that's true. I do remember again, about that same time, like would write poems and poetry and little short things and show them to my dad. I didn't go any further than my own family, but he was encouraging me to sort of, you know, try creative writing and, and all that kinda stuff because I was never, I could never, I was never an artist. I could never draw or paint or do any, I was, my dad tried to make me musical or, or tried to gimme the opportunity to be musical. I learned piano for a while, but I just memorized the muscle movements. I never learned the music, It wasn't, I liked music as a, as a medium, as a, as a listener, but I was not very good musician to be honest.

Caroline: 17:48

I hear you.

Chris Baron: 17:49

it was kind of, writing was a way of doing that. Photography was a way of doing that. And I was pretty good at English at at school. But I never really sort of felt myself as a, I'm gonna be a, a writer when I grew up. Um, I sort of fell, I'm, no, I dunno how early this was, but I had a pretty good affinity for sciences, Not necessarily mathematics or stuff, but certainly biology, and things like that. So I got into that pretty early. And yeah, so I kind of, I just kind of had this part of my being my personality that I kind of had as a, as a separate part of my academics life, because it's like great academics. I can just focus on the science aspect and, you know, be good all the rest, but not really think about that as a career. I had it sort of as sort of, you know, in the back pocket as it were,

Caroline: 18:39

Like a fun hobby, like a side thing?

Chris Baron: 18:41

Yeah, it's a side thing, but I never really considered it something that I would ever do as a job. I'd never be a writer or an author or study literature at university that didn't necessarily interest me, it was still the science. I was a very curious, I loved nature, I loved being outside. And my dad being a geologist he always instilled, a curiosity about the world and, and, and science itself, and introduced me to, I remember very vividly as a kid watching loads of volcano documentaries that NatGeo used to put out. So he had like VHSs of those and, and it's like, rather than put on like a kid's movie, he's like, oh, why don't you watch these like science docs? And I've got very, like, we probably watched them tons of times so he was very clearly, I don't know whether he was sort of, I think he was probably just trying to introduce me to like, look how cool science is and you could be a scientist

Caroline: 19:28

Yeah. And I mean the, the quality of children's programming when I was a child, and I don't know, you might be, you might be younger than me, honestly, but it wasn't that great. So it could also have been a, if we're gonna have to watch something, let's make sure it's something I like too, you know? Um.

Chris Baron: 19:46

It could be that he's like, I'm sick of Sesame Street. Let's watch something.

Caroline: 19:49

Now, what did you think that, success meant, or the world of work meant from that childhood lens?

Chris Baron: 19:59

I mean, from a childhood lens, I think, again, I, I'm speaking only from my own perspective, but I, a child probably first and foremost is just trying to impress their parents, I think trying to, from when you're going to school, you know, you get a report card and when you get, A's you know, you get praise and you know it's good and blablabla, if you get F's or D's or whatever, it's like it's not good. You need to shape up and you need to do better and all that kinda stuff. So I guess success is, is kind of instilled from you is, is, is impressing your parents, and that's probably sticks with you probably until you leave school, I imagine. Then you start sort of forming peer groups and I guess after that it's, on top of impressing your parents, which I think probably sticks with you your entire life to a certain level. It probably probably decreases over time, but, then you're competitive with your peers. You know, success is being the best of your peers. You know, I am top of my class, I am top of, my work group at, at, at work, at the office or whatever, it is probably not until you reach at least your mid-career. And again, I'm only 39, so I, I am, you know, kind

Caroline: 21:05

There we go. There's a decade there. I've got a decade on you. Watch out. This is what's next.

Chris Baron: 21:10

It's trying to figure out like beyond all that stuff, because you know, you've, you've made your parents proud or whatever, and you've kind of succeeded within your peer group. And, you know, it's kind of then like, okay, great. What, what do I have to do to impress myself? And that, I think is the hardest part defining success is like, how do you feel successful when you're the only one you're comparing yourself to.

Caroline: 21:33

Yes, yes. That's a journey. Yeah. That's, that's a journey.

Chris Baron: 21:36

that's a longer journey, I think.

Caroline: 21:38

And even though it's a longer journey, you paid attention to clues and made pretty good, you made decisions true to you at times others would have overridden and gone with what the status quo was. Because there are certain times of it's normal to question your life and question your career, and you have opportunities to make changes at those set points. It, you know, things can happen by choice or by force, but typically it's around 15 to 18, maybe 22 to 26, and then every seven to 10 years after. And so what's also fascinating about parts of your story is that they line up nicely with those and you gather data and made a decision for yourself. We were in Dubai and you've now been introduced to some photography. You definitely have this exploring, you have some storytelling, perhaps not in a traditional way that you would think just through words only, and, and then what?'cause you moved from Dubai then yet another place I think. When was that?

Chris Baron: 22:41

I moved to Dubai with my family when they moved, I was about 11 and by the age of 15, um. Hmm. I think my parents were like, they could kind of see what happens with a lot of kids who, especially ones who stick around Dubai from an early age and go through the school system. And, you know, Dubai is for people who have been there. It's an, it's an extraordinary place, don't get me wrong. It's very different to a lot of other parts of the world in that, for expats in particular, you have a lot of stuff done for you. It's not, not a difficult life as a kid growing up there. You've probably got, you know, someone at work, you know, like a house maid or something like that, or a helper that does a lot of the stuff. And I think what happened with some of the kids that my parents saw from their friends been born and bred in the school system, they'd left the school system, gone back to wherever country was home, South Africa, Australia, America, UK, whatever, and gone to university there and struggled quote unquote, that's the real world, in some respects, it's not, is not, everything's not done for you. Things are not as easy. You've gotta figure stuff out yourself. And some of them didn't, couldn't hack it. They came back and they either finished the university or didn't and then came back to Dubai and, and lived and worked in Dubai. And so my parents are like, we don't want that for our kids. So they sort of said, we'll send you to boarding school. And I had an opportunity to, to go to boarding school in Scotland in a very, a lovely school called Dollar Academy which is, it's a fantastic sports school and academically as well. I went to Dollar again, it was sort of even halfway through a term, I think, you know, I wasn't even finishing the, it wasn't between school

Caroline: 24:21

Oh wow. They just made a decision and just, there you go. And they stayed in Dubai while you went to Scotland?

Chris Baron: 24:28

Yep.

Caroline: 24:29

Did your brother go too?

Chris Baron: 24:30

No, he stayed in Dubai. I was on my own. And, he did join me a couple years later. So that was, that was good. I went there and, it was fantastic. You know, it was, again, think having those previous jumps just helped me to adjust quicker because When you're, and you're used to so much change, you kind of just, you observe the social fabric, the social dynamic, how those, how those kind of communication things work, how people, how peers work, how bullying works, how all those kinds of things. You kind of just figure out the system. And then once you figure it out, then you just slot in wherever you slot in. And yeah, so, again, going back to the science thing, I loved, I had a great science and biology teacher, which really inspired me and accelerated that sort of love of science in me. It got to the point of finishing at school I had to choose which university courses I wanted to do. And, to very briefly explain to people how the choices work In the British system is that when you do all your exams and, you essentially choose six, you have six slots for different university courses. And you might choose, like, I want to go and do medicine. So you go do medicine at like Edinburgh or Oxford or St. Andrews or wherever, and you, put your first choice as number one and blah, blah, And depending on how your grades are and depending on your applications to those various universities. If your number one gets selected, great. You go there. If not, then you hope number two works, and then so and so on. So I had no idea what I wanted to do. I, I didn't wanna do medicine I had a meeting in my last year with, with the careers counselor of the school. I remember this so vividly, and he basically sort of called me and he says, okay, so what do you, what do you like, what, what subjects do you like doing? And I said, well, I love, I love sports, really enjoy sports and also love science. Uh, I love biology and stuff. He said, oh, okay. So why don't you just do sports science? I was like, okay, that sounds fun. What is that? And so we talked a little bit about it, but there was no further interrogation of like, whether that was really something for me. like, okay, great. I guess I'll go do sports science then. And know, as a 17-year-old maybe at that point I was like, okay, cool. I guess I could do a career in sports science. I like sports, I like science, whatever. So four of those first six slots I did sports science applications and I had two left. So I was like, okay, I'll just do, I'll throw some wild cards in. One of the wild cards was photography at one of the universities in Scotland. And another wild card was forensic biology and because I was like, I think CSI was popular at the time Oh, that'll be cool, you know?

Caroline: 27:03

Yeah.

Chris Baron: 27:03

And so from sending out that sort of six applications or whatever, I had, it takes a few months for all the, your reviews to come in and whatever. And I'd met a few people. Like friends of friends that had actually gone and done sports science and I was like, man, this is not what I want to do. Like I don't really wanna be a physio, I don't wanna be a coach necessarily. It's not, it's just not me, long story short, I, I ended up like, I think I got a few of those sports science, I, I was accepted, but obviously you, you don't have to go through it if you don't want to. So I rejected the, those ones and I decided not to do photography'cause I wanted to do something slightly more academic. And I, the last one left was, was forensic biology and that's what I went and did. And so I went to Glasgow and did forensic biology at university. And its a four year course and I think I figured out probably within, maybe the second year that forensic biology is probably not the career that I wanted, but I would finish the course regardless, because again, like forensic biology is great, super interesting, like crime scenes, blood splatter analysis, DNA, all those kind of stuff. But at the end of the day, the career itself was what, what I believed was, you sit in a lab, you get, maybe a shoe comes in with some blood on it, and you cut out the little blood spot from the shoe, then you put it in the robot, get the DNA sequencing results, you print it out, and then you write the report and you stand up in court and present it and then, essentially rinse and repeat over and over again and I was like, oh man, that's still, it's not scratching the itch that I want. I finished that course and then decided to do a, a research master's, which is kinda like a mini PhD, In molecular microbiology.

Caroline: 28:41

How did you choose that?

Chris Baron: 28:43

Well, it was interesting that after I'd finished the forensic course, I think I was, you, you do a number of different courses within forensics, so you go and do classes within microbiology and blah, blah, blah, blah. So you get your basics in science. And I sort of, got quite friendly with the microbiology professor and he mentioned to me that they do a summer internship, sort of scholarship thing and I applied for that and got it so I spent the summer, two months or three months in the lab with all the PhD students, the postdocs, and I was like, this is cool. Like, you know, researching science, trying to find out new stuff, a answering questions, exploring new frontiers and all that kinda stuff. And felt like I was actually doing something that was like problem solving, And so he said, well, if you wanna keep doing this, you can apply for the, the master's course. And I ended up doing that. so I, I did a master's in molecular microbiology and did a little mini research project and which was essentially there's a, a particular kind of bacteria that makes the majority of, antibiotics in for human and veterinary use and so we were trying to sort of, do some tweaking of the, the DNA to make it more efficient so it needs less food and less resources. So all that kind of stuff. So it was super fun. So that was kind of like my journey from school into university

Caroline: 29:58

And now, aside from the internship and the lab, did you have any other jobs as a, you know, younger person?

Chris Baron: 30:08

I think the first job I remember having was when I was back in Dubai, I guess maybe 15 or so, and like the local summer camp or whatever needed counselors and And whatever. So that's what I did. I went and spent a summer camp being a counselor and organizing games and

Caroline: 30:25

Activities and adventures and was there like canoeing or where, where did rock climbing come into all of this?

Chris Baron: 30:32

That was a little bit later. I think I rock climb as a kid, but I didn't get back into it till I was in my twenties. But, I was always climbing. But no, it was kind of like, it might be at like the local sports facility or the country club or whatever, where all the kids would have the summer off and the parents just wanted to dump them for the day. And, we would play various games, like could be soccer or, they're in the pool or whatever, and just making sure that they're safe and they're having fun and yeah, that kinda stuff. So that was probably my, probably one of my first jobs that I can remember, When I was at university, I did a bunch of stuff. Most kids, you know, kids, I say kids, university students

Caroline: 31:07

Well now we can say kids, but at that time it sure didn't feel like a kid. And my, my kid doesn't feel like he's a kid, but yeah.

Chris Baron: 31:13

Adults, a hundred percent. Uh, I worked in a bar, I worked in a number of bars at that time I worked like a retail Supplemental stuff, in the evenings, the weekends to, to make up money for living, paying for parties and alcohol and all that sort of stuff you do at university.

Caroline: 31:28

The fun, the fun things. But this is, this is cool because it's, it's like still your adventure, still this connection and this observing and experiencing different lifestyles wherever you are. Like these are all coming into play and it's fascinating. Okay, so you have this master's degree and now that's ending and you have to start choosing what are you gonna do next? What went into that decision and how did you choose that next chapter?

Chris Baron: 32:03

The natural place for anyone doing that Master's the research Master's is a PhD, you know, essentially a, even a lot of PhD course, if you go straight from a, you know, and this might just be a Scotland only thing, but if you go straight from an undergraduate degree to a PhD, usually the first year might be a master's course anyway

Caroline: 32:19

Yeah, yeah. That's how mine was. Well, it, it was almost like a, some people went into it saying they were, they were gonna get a master's. Other people got into it a little bit and decided, I'm gonna take this master's route instead of, because after the research part ends, after the core courses end and whatever the project is, it just gets really, really subjective, undefined, and your life becomes at the other end of, of four or five people's decision of whether what you've done is enough and novel enough in some sort of thing. And it, it just becomes a massive obstacle course. And some choose that they don't feel like playing that game, you know?

Chris Baron: 33:05

Exactly. I was kinda like, okay, great. I've done my masters, I got my masters. I guess I go do a PhD now and what do I wanna do a PhD on? And I was like, okay, microbiology's cool. They didn't have any PhDs available in the lab I was in, so I was like, great, I have to go outside, have a look, see what's around. I like virology as well as microbiology. And we

Caroline: 33:23

Oh.

Chris Baron: 33:23

a virology thing. and I did a number of interviews. Some went better than others, and I think I started questioning whether a PhD was right for me, whether I wanted to be, know, so because to, as you know, as a doctorate hold of yourself. You've gotta be so focused on a tiny little corner of, Science or whatever, Field that you're studying, and it may be irrelevant. And I, to go back to my master's, I learned something, I learned a brutal truth about science in, in that master's course. And it was unfortunate, but I don't wanna bore your listeners with the genetics of things, but essentially I did this entire, master's course to, to try and a gene inside the DNA of the, or the, the genome of the, of the microbe. And basically what happened is it failed. And we didn't know that it failed after the entire year because it's hard to sequence the genome. And long story short, I did an entire year of work only to find out that just basically by simple fluke of biology that everything had failed. And I was like, ouch that hurts. Okay, great. I learned, I guess I learned a lot personally, But I didn't get a paper out of it or anything because it's just one of those, one of those unfortunate things about biology and I was like, okay, great that, I was like, like could easily happen in a PhD as well. Do I want to spend four years this time doing the same thing? At the same time, I'd also met a lot of people doing PhDs. It's like, wow, you guys aren't all, all together that happy sometimes, you know?

Caroline: 34:54

There was a oh my goodness. Our building was a glass building. Beautiful. It was, it's a polymer science building in, in Akron, Ohio, and it was tall. I mean, it doesn't look like Dubai or anything, but it was a taller all glass gorgeous building that from the skyline you can see. And so from the outside looking in, it looked so glorious and like fascinating and futuristic. And then from the inside looking out, I remember there was a, a, a friend who started the year before me and he was on the same floor. On one side was the synthesis side, and on the other side was the more material science side. And I had chosen, I didn't wanna be shaking separatory funnels and building things. I wanted to break things. So I was on the other side of the building, but we would pass each other on the way to, or from the restroom, for example. Or, or just, you know, getting out and having a, a breather. And there were plants along the, the edge of that row of windows where you could take some stairs down. And there was just a, a shelf. And I didn't notice at first, but he said. Did you notice even these plants are dying. They're dying. It's not that, and there's plenty of sunlight, right? So he is like, there's something in this building, it just makes things die. And I was like, whoa.

Chris Baron: 36:12

It's just the bad energy.

Caroline: 36:14

I was very, he's since gone on to be a very nice professor at a different university, but, I should call him and ask him if, if he has plants and how they're doing. But yeah, there were, as much as it's like this forefront of science and all of that, again, almost like parenting, like the day to day reality doesn't feel so novel and exciting.

Chris Baron: 36:37

Exactly. And it is tough. It takes, I have a huge amount of respect. My wife has a PhD as well. I have a huge amount of respect for anyone that can, can successfully, defend their thesis at the end of the day'cause that's, you know, going through a virus is not easy. That's intense. And, your entire four years of work is led up to this, defense of standing in front of five or six professors and for a few hours and being grilled intensely.

Caroline: 37:00

Yes. And you're like, oh. And then even trying to prepare for that, I'm like, oh, I gotta go back and study all the courses and all the things and dah, dah, dah, and how it led up to today. And like, yeah, what's her PhD in?

Chris Baron: 37:11

I think it's biophysics,

Caroline: 37:12

Oh, cool.

Chris Baron: 37:14

Crystallography of proteins and

Caroline: 37:16

Very cool.

Chris Baron: 37:17

She's in pharmacology or basically in pharmaceutical biotech now. So it's basically how, figuring out how drug interactions work and all that kinda

Caroline: 37:24

Oh, that's so cool.

Chris Baron: 37:26

Molecular level, pharmacy stuff. So, yeah.

Caroline: 37:29

Very fascinating. Okay. All right. So you're there and you're starting to realize, and you're, you're kind of going on some PhD interviews and you're thinking, eh, I'm not quite so sure. And then what happened?

Chris Baron: 37:38

So I had to get a job. I needed money. And so I was like, if it's not, if it's not gonna be the academic route, what have I got open to me? And I started looking for, because I still love science. I was like, I can use my master's to try and get a job in some kinda science stuff. And I found a job in, is what scientific sales, selling equipment and consumables to laboratories, you know? And I thought in the back of my mind, I was like, okay, well this is cool because I haven't found the PhD that I'd like yet, but if I do this job for maybe a year or something, I'll get to meet a lot of professors And then maybe I'll meet one. It'd be like, you have a really cool, uh, project or feel of interest or whatever, research interest and maybe I can come do a PhD with you. So that was my logic. I was like, but, and I can earn money while doing it.

Caroline: 38:23

And so was it a manufacturer or like a distributor or like what was, what were the things?

Chris Baron: 38:28

God, I think it was probably both. It was, it was a big one. Um, I think the company, it was a global company, so we, you know, we, when I got the job, you know, which was interesting, it was, a hub in Glasgow and Europe and the States, and I think the main head office was in the States. And I do think that they were a manufacturer as well as the distributor of, of stuff and, and they developed their own equipment and all that kinda stuff. So it was your job to learn the product line and, and sell it to labs and, you know, try and get people to switch over to their products and all that kinda stuff.

Caroline: 38:58

And did you get sales training?

Chris Baron: 39:01

Yes. So I applied for the job and we got called for an assessment day. Do you know what assessment day is?

Caroline: 39:07

Tell me.

Chris Baron: 39:08

So an assessment day. Essentially, and I had no idea what it was either when I Like, okay, I, so it's not an interview. Like, no, it's an assessment day. I was like, okay. And it's basically like, I would describe it as a mass interview, like there would be a hundred people on this assessment day, and they're all vying for maybe 15 or 20 jobs.

Caroline: 39:27

Oh wow.

Chris Baron: 39:28

so the whole day, and sometimes they're two days, but I think mine was a day you turn up at wherever it is, and you essentially have a series of um, group exercises, role play exercises, one-on-one interviews. you, they're basically observing all of these hundred people to see who they wanna hire. um, and yeah, so I kind of went into it without any expectations, just thought I'll just do my best and whatever. And which I was um, happy with at the time. And they flew us all from, that cohort to Carlsbad in, in California For four weeks of sales training.

Caroline: 40:06

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Chris Baron: 40:43

And I was like, put us up in a hotel and, I was like, this is cool, getting put up and going through seminars and, getting the whole product line described to us and making sure we knew it and grilling us and testing us and putting us through scenarios and role play what on, face-to-face role play, phone role play, going through scripts and stuff. The whole shebang. The whole shebang. And, um, the same time it was fun because, the senior salespeople were there. They were kind of being like, Hey, look at the lifestyle we were drinking vodka and the jacuzzi you know, afterwards. And, showing the young graduates like, Hey, you know, this is what kind of, what's in store for you if you, you stick it out in this job. and so, yeah, so I did the sales training and, I remember very clearly having a. What would you, what would you call it? Not an altercation, but just, you know, a healthy discussion with one of the trainers, um, which kind of was around the subject of, as a salesperson, when do you take, take no as an answer and their philosophy is obviously you never take no as an answer and me as a consumer and being at the other end of that, I'm like, uh, three times probably the most and then I start getting annoyed and I don't wanna work with you or buy your product ever again. But I sort of had this backwards and forwards with this guy in a seminar, and I was like, really? I like, how do you not, how does the, how do you not piss off the customer when you just keep saying like, no, I'm not listening, essentially. I'm not listening to you and this is why you need to buy our product. And sure there's a lot of salespeople listening right now going, you know, having their own opinions. But just me personally, I was like, I guess I put myself too much in other people's shoes and you know, see myself from other people's perspective. And probably good in some ways to try and understand your problem and your need, but the same time, you also have to switch off part of your brain where you're like, okay, no, no. I'm gonna keep pushing and pushing to get that sale. And that was probably the first red flag, um, for me going to that job. And over the months and months and months, we did, you know, quarterly sales meetings and all that kinda stuff and went out to meet your professors and did all the stuff I was hoping to do, you know, um. Uh, long story short, with that, I, I didn't meet any professors that had cool stuff, so that plan went out the window, but it was kind of the third, the third quarter sales meeting. So I, I'd started at the, started in January, beginning of January, and, um, this was probably the Q3 sales meeting, and everyone comes together from all over Europe and stuff. So there's, you know, like a thousand people from the company come descend on some Hilton conference room and they're all spreadsheets on, on the screen. And, congratulating themselves about how much money they've made and competing with other tables and different groups and different teams like, oh, you guys got more than us. You get this prize, you get that prize, this guy, you guys need to do better. And what, how do you, why do you not sell so much? And think at that, I, I got back to my hotel room and sat in my bed that night and was just like, this is, again, I was, this is just not me and I cannot see myself doing this for the next, I guess I was maybe early twenties then. So. 45 years or whatever, you know,

Caroline: 43:50

Yeah. Did it feel any sort of way, like when you were aside from that, like ru ru, I don't know that I wanna be pushy for a sale. Right? And you start seeing this whole day of spreadsheets and things, and you come back and you kinda have this realization, but like, did you feel anything in your body? Like, for me, at, at different parts, I felt like, is this food poisoning? Am I gonna throw up? Like, and I'd kind of wonder and then I'd look, override it. I'm like, no, no, no, it's fine. It's fine. But did it show up? Was it just recurring thoughts or also feelings?

Chris Baron: 44:22

As so physical as you had. I guess I was kind of like, I dunno, may, maybe it was an age thing, I dunno how old you were in your, how far through your career you were when you had those feelings.

Caroline: 44:34

Yeah.

Chris Baron: 44:34

But because I was still relatively like young, I was kind of maybe felt like, it's okay if I can fail at this.

Caroline: 44:43

Yeah.

Chris Baron: 44:43

And try something new or try something else. And I, I knew I wasn't happy, you know, um, you know, I had like a girlfriend at the time and, you know, we were, you know, I think we broke up around that same time as well. I dunno whether I had anything to do with it or something.

Caroline: 44:59

Yeah.

Chris Baron: 45:00

I knew I wasn't happy, but it didn't manifest as like a physical like I felt sick or whatever, but I just knew this wasn't right. And I, I maybe felt, you know, a level of like, I don't know where I'm gonna go next. But it wasn't like a despair of like, my life is like,

Caroline: 45:16

Hinging on this thing.

Chris Baron: 45:18

Yeah.

Caroline: 45:18

Okay. Okay. That's cool. And also to this date, you've been in so many places, so many experiences that just like going and starting something new is just kinda like another, another day, another year. Not necessarily like something so catastrophic for sometimes for people who've not ever lived somewhere different, not ever had different friends than those that they started kindergarten with. It can be like a, a huge thing to overcome. And for you, you're just like, eh, not sure.

Chris Baron: 45:49

Well, there's positives and negatives to the, the way I grew up, you know, the positives being in this situation, that change wasn't something that I was afraid of, I was like, if this doesn't work, I'll try something else. You know, I'll find, I didn't know what that thing would be And I was kind of like, I'm sure I'll find something. You know, it was kind of maybe more, excited anticipation rather than anxiety or fear.

Caroline: 46:13

I see. Yep. Yeah. The mindset.

Chris Baron: 46:15

Mindset thing, but then I, but I didn't know at the time, but the downside is that, as you said, you know, I, I don't have anywhere that I would call home necessarily. I mean, home is always where, where the heart is, but I don't have a hometown. I don't have friends, childhood friends that I keep in touch with regularly. You know, I don't have like that home base necessarily where I'm like, okay, great. If I go back there, that's like my comfort blanket, whatever.

Caroline: 46:37

I got you.

Chris Baron: 46:38

Which a lot of people do have, you know, they always have that place. It's like if I go home, like I, you know, all this stuff from my childhood is there. It's all nostalgic. And, and they have that. Yeah. That's the one thing I'm missing from, from, from that experience, I guess

Caroline: 46:51

Okay. So you're in this hotel room and you're realizing, yeah, I don't quite think I can do this for another 40 something years, and then where did that lead you?

Chris Baron: 47:02

It, it led me to essentially assessing my life. Where do I want to go next? I cannot do this. I cannot do this job for another 45 years, so what am I gonna do with my life? And again, it was, it was say, on the bed that night, everyone was, you know, I was still probably half pissed. Everyone was in bed, you know, after all the festivities and from the sales conference. And, I just got Googling, you know, and what I, I still recognized that I loved science. I, I didn't want to, I wanted to do, I wanna keep that in my career, but I also love photography. And I was like, what? You know, I think I probably literally Googled, what job can you do with science and photography with a and, documentary filmmaking came up and, very shortly after that, it was an advert for the BBC, came up because I was like, oh, the BBC has a science department. I didn't know that. So, yeah, I was, I was basically googling on my bed, googling what I could do with science and photography and, a job advert came up for an internship at the BBC Science department, and I was like, holy crap. The BBC has a science department that's really cool. Um, I didn't know that that existed. And so they, they had this internship and literally that night I just in the application, slapped on my cv, went to bed, didn't think about it. And probably thinking like, you know, 500,000 people that are applying with the same internship and you know, I'm never gonna get it and literally a week later they emailed back saying, Hey Chris, you know, we'd like your cv. We, if you want to come and do the internship, then please. You know, and this again, this was like September something and said, oh, but it'll start on the 1st of October. I was like, oh, okay. I guess I need to make a decision, because i've gotta tell my, I, it's the usual, few weeks of, um, of, of notice you've gotta give to your, your job. And so I, I went to my boss and said, Hey, I've got this opportunity, what's the chances of, you know, it was a four week internship unpaid. And I was like, can I take unpaid leave or something for four weeks? He's like, what for? He's like, well, I've got this, you know, I've been accepted to do, this internship at the BBC in the science department. He's like, well, you know, clearly you're not that interested in scientific sales, so what do you, you know, what's your move here? And he's sort of like, also, again, this is kind of a, an interesting move, but kind of telling of, of sales jobs potentially. But he'd calculated how much my bonus would've been if I'd stuck it out for another three months till the end of the full year, I guess the end of my probation. I'd done quite well with my sales targets, so I was like, you know. Basically, long story short, I had a, a 33,000 pound bonus on top of my salary that was coming, which is probably, I don't know, a hundred percent of my, you know, a hundred percent bonus on top of what I was already in. I was like, wow, that is kind of, I remember my eyes going, oh my God, that's a lot of money for a 23-year-old or whatever. And I kind of said, okay, that's good information, thank you. But basically what it would mean is if I did stick around then I couldn't do the BBC thing

Caroline: 50:02

Yep.

Chris Baron: 50:02

and I'd have to sort of think about it and then maybe reapply in January and then not get it and

Caroline: 50:07

Yep.

Chris Baron: 50:07

stuff. I took the weekend to think about it and spoke to my dad and spoke to a few other friends about it, and it was an easy answer at the end of the day, you know, as, as you can imagine, and, you know, as history has shown, I, I quit my job and, uh, went and did the internship and, I think from day one, walking into the BBC you know, up in Scotland stuff, you know, get given your, you know, BBC ID and stuff. It was, it was utterly exhilarating, the first few hours that I walked in.

Caroline: 50:36

yeah. See that's the thing too, is that like even when interviewing for places or, you know, just like if somebody goes to buy a car or get an apartment or get a house, you walk into several and some are just kinda like me. All right. And then every now and then you walk into one and you're like, oh, this, there's something different here. This feels like I could be here. Oh, I, I think I would like to walk in this way. I think of like, and like every single thing, like, oh, I think I could, I think I could even wash my hands here. Like I, I don't know this feel, I, I could eat my lunch over there. Yeah. You know, just those kind of things. So, and the energy and all of that of like walking around. I, I don't think that people give enough credit to those little ways of, not just the objective information about it, but like, how do you actually feel in it too? Yeah.

Chris Baron: 51:33

it felt incredible. And, getting my first day induction around the building, you gotta know all the things. Walking into the live, you know, the studio spaces and all that. I was like, this is amazing. And one thing I didn't tell you when I was in, Dollar in Scotland, in the boarding school, I got into, um, you know, the, the theater like doing the stage management, stage lighting and that sort of stuff. And, um. I did. I was never a performer. I was never on stage, but I was the one, you know, planning the lighting setups and working on that, doing all the stage, you know, moving props around during, you know, scene changes. So I loved that sort of like being behind the scenes, being in places that people don't usually get to go, getting privileged access to stuff. These all little feelings and parts that I'm like that, that's a cool feeling. I'm gonna bank that for later. I didn't know at the time, a huge part of documentary filmmaking is being able to go to cross that line and be in places that yeah people don't get to go to very often. Meet people you don't often get to meet. Like having that privileged access. And again, I think as soon as I walked through the doors of the BBC that first time, I was like, okay. All of those feelings just started like welling back up again. I was just like, I was riveted. And, you know, even the, the first job they had me doing is now what is probably one of the most boring jobs that you can do, do in television, which is called logging hmm which is essentially sitting down with, all of the footage from a shoot, so a shoot might last, I don't know, a week, and they may have, I don't know, dozens of hours of footage that, you know, different clips every time they push record, stop recording, you know, got all the different clips in the camera. They put'em into a system and some person is gonna sit down, watch every clip, and then write what happens to the clip. Is it a good take? Is it a bad take? Did they nail, did the presenter nail the script? Did they, did they mess it up? Was it in focus? Like all of those notes has to be done by someone and not many people like to do it because it's a long and arduous job. But for someone like me, I was like, oh

Caroline: 53:32

Fascinating.

Chris Baron: 53:33

Behind the scenes and like the presenter's like swearing when they made up where they messed up a take and all that kinda stuff. And I was like, this is so cool.

Caroline: 53:41

for you though, you're having this immersion of like what was there and what was possible and like even starting to discern on your own of like, here's the elements of what makes something that captured my interest and what made something that is not useful from that get go. How fascinating.'Cause somebody could be like, oh, well hey, Chris, we're gonna take a lot of footage here and some's gonna be good and some's gonna be not, not really useful. And like, okay, but you got to experience that.

Chris Baron: 54:13

Yeah,

Caroline: 54:14

Fascinating. Fascinating.

Chris Baron: 54:17

And that was my first week. And then they drag you into meetings, like development meetings where all the, the heads of departments are all like throwing ideas out. And, they even asked me like if I've got ideas or just wanted to contribute and I was, I didn't have any ideas. I was like freaking terrified to, to speak up at that stage. But, um, you know, the second week they put me out on a shoot and that was probably when I was out in shoot. I think that there's, I mean, listeners, like there's multiple parts of, of, of documentary production, roughly speaking, there's three main parts. There's this sort of pre-production, production, and the post-production. So pre-production is like the research and the planning. Production is essentially all the filming, post-production is all the editing and the delivery. And, you know, usually people end up in, you know, various parts of those categories. And, I loved the production part of it, and I realized that when I went on the first shoot, which was for a very, you know, low budget BBC four documentary about botany. It was like the history of botany. It probably had like a thousand people watching it or something on BBC four. But they did this amazing story, about, I think it was a Russian, or, maybe Ukrainian, I can't remember the, the exact scientist, but one of the main scientists involved in like, genetics at the time and, and how botany was evolving at that time. And essentially his research got him in trouble with the KGB and they wanted to like, take him out and all this kinda stuff. So we were telling that story and so the director was like, okay guys, I've got this idea. The presenter is gonna walk up this like dark, you know, forested road in the middle of Scotland somewhere that they'd found. And he's gonna be wearing like a, if he's dressed for the times, you know, in sort of Soviet era Russia what we call a piece to camera. So talking the script to camera and in the background there's gonna be like an old, like 1920s phantom Rolls Royce. We're gonna hire and drive up the road. And then as he finishes his script at the line, you guys are gonna turn up and then you're gonna pretend to be KGB agents and grab him and throw him in the back of the car and drive off. And so it was basically like, me and the assistant producer at the time got dressed up in like trench coats and hats and whatever and I was like, this is extraordinary. Like we're getting paid to like, have this much fun. So yeah, we like jumped at the back of the Rolls Royce with the producer and just followed his lead and grabbed the presenter and had my first tiny cameo on, on a

Caroline: 56:36

Interesting. Now you're no longer behind the scenes, you're in the scene, you know?

Chris Baron: 56:40

Well, this is the thing with a lot of documentaries, we end up on camera some way, shape, or form'cause you need extras and you need people running around the background or something or other. So I've made dozens of cameos in my time in, in the industry, but I at that point, I was hooked. It was all the stuff on shoot, which I thought this is the most exciting, part of it. And that kind of endured pretty much up until now. Actually, it's so much fun because it's the travel, it's the excitement of being in a situation where you're live, you're rapidly problem solving the, the stakes are high, the most expensive part of, of, of a documentary is often the production, the money spent per day, getting people to location, hiring the equipment and the crew and whole shebang.

Caroline: 57:22

How did it go from that? So you have this unpaid thing and you're ex, you're realizing, yes. This I think is really something. This is fascinating. People actually have jobs like this. Then how did that unpaid internship then turn into some sort of income opportunity and still fun?

Chris Baron: 57:44

So they have a, I mean, basically what I have after the internship, they have what they call the researchers pool at the BBC, which is basically you apply for it, and then you're in a pool of researchers. So if they have a project come up, they go to the pool and they see who's available. So I got into the pool, but the phone wasn't ringing, because I didn't, I guess I didn't have many projects at that time or whatever. so I just started looking for other documentary work. So I, I was looking all the different companies in, in Glasgow at the time, and there was, you know, quite a few good, production companies. And I started right at the bottom, I started as a runner, which is essentially getting teas, coffees, lunches, just making sure, you know, doing the grunt work effectively, carrying equipment, packing cars, and making sure everyone needs what they have, what they need, and, and that was it. You know, the first job, I think after that was on a project called Antiques Roadshow. I don't know if you've heard of Antiques Roadshow in the States.

Caroline: 58:42

Yeah. I think occasionally that, that, that kind of thing is on at my parents' house. Right. But, but like, it's, it's kind of like from the get from the beginning, you're like, I don't think so. And then you actually start watching for a little bit and it's like fascinating. And you're like, wow, that coin is worth such and such, or whatever, you know? And you're like, huh, who knew? You know? And then you become interesting, interested even more again, because of the way that it's filmed, the way the story is shown and told becomes like, wow. Huh. Yeah.

Chris Baron: 59:15

Hundred percent. And it wasn't science, but I was like, it's a first, my first real paid job in tv and we were doing a special version with celebrities that summer, the job was to basically drive from Glasgow with the vans. And the way that the program works, you know, two celebrities, they each get given like 400 pounds and they gotta spend at all the antique shops. And then at the end of the week, they've gotta try and sell

Caroline: 59:40

Ah,

Chris Baron: 59:41

got and all the money goes to charity.

Caroline: 59:43

interesting. Yeah. Yeah. That's kind of cool. Like a do good for the world thing, you know?

Chris Baron: 59:47

It was, it was, it was really nice and we had fun celebrities and they had classic cars that we got to drive sometimes. But again, the, the way that it was work,'cause we had two teams and each team had their own little TV crew with them. So I was part of Crew A or Crew B and a friend of mine that I, and it was another runner on the other team so, you know, we just did that across the summer. We went to like Oxford and all different parts of the UK. I just had an amazing blast just driving around and making the show and just learning about the art of television as well. Like, these are such small crews that I'm, you know, talking to the cameraman and saying, Hey, what are you doing with this part? How does this thing work? And cameramen love it when you ask about how things work'cause if they see someone who's passionate about it, they'll give you a go on the camera. So I got to sort of learn how the camera works and got my first camera experience. And then, you know how the scripting and the, we had a really good assistant producer on that shoot who taught me about, you know, how the schedule works and how to build a schedule for television. So at the bottom of the, the rung,

Caroline: 1:00:46

It's fascinating. Yeah,

Chris Baron: 1:00:47

I tell this to people all the time is that in this industry, you have to walk before you can run because if you start try running, you'll end up falling over. And, I've seen it happen with a lot of people that try and progress so quickly through the, the television ranks. sometimes, you know, people will go really quickly and find that break maybe at the wrong time. They haven't got quite enough experience, but they found the breaks somehow and became a director or whatever, and their first shoot or their first show doesn't go well, and they sometimes may never recover from that. So I found it was, you know, so helpful for me to learn every single rung as I went up and sort of felt like I was overqualified for a job by the time I got into it, you know? So I felt like once I started into it, there was a lot for me to learn, but I felt it wasn't daunting and I had enough skills that I could prove that, you know, there's a reason that I got this job.

Caroline: 1:01:42

Yeah,

Chris Baron: 1:01:43

So that's kind of, I, I think being, if you, anyone out there wanting to get to television start from the bottom, you know, learn it from the bottom up.

Caroline: 1:01:51

I think that's fascinating because also then now you, with some of your own amazing opportunities, crews, experience, things that you've like done, you know, intimately what it feels like to be that person. And you also can understand that even though it's like, okay, from the grand scheme of things, what does it matter that this person had my coffee or my food? But if you don't have coffee or food, these people are gonna start getting a little more cranky. And it's like every single link of the chain is essential or it can break, like, and you didn't just have someone, again, you didn't just have somebody tell you this is a thing you put yourself or, or were able to put yourself into that experience to be that feel that do that, see that from that angle, I guess,

Chris Baron: 1:02:42

Yeah. And the other reason I think it's so important to do it that way is that, you know, you have to do a job to know how to manage someone else doing the

Caroline: 1:02:50

Yes, yes.

Chris Baron: 1:02:51

So like, if I, you know, I have a runner and I've done that job for however many, you know, projects. I become the next level at research or a producer and I have a runner who's, you know, working to me or whatever. I know how to manage them effectively, you know, because I've done that role. I can teach'em how to do it, become a mentor not just a mentor, but a good manager. So that's another reason I think it's so important to, to earn your stripes as you go up through, through a ladder.

Caroline: 1:03:15

And so, what have been some of the most fascinating opportunities you've had to, like, I, I'm kind of curious, the follow up question to this is gonna be like when you fall asleep, what do you dream about? Because like, you have so much to draw from, but like, what are some of the fascinating experiences that you've literally captured and helped create to bring to the world?

Chris Baron: 1:03:41

I mean, there's some really funny ones that always stick in my mind for my early career, that shoot I mentioned earlier when I was in Houston, Texas, the director kind of came up with this random idea at six o'clock in the morning it was a whole story about sub subconscious mind. We were doing a whole series about, you know, how the brain works and stuff. So the episode was about subconscious mind, and he wanted to do a story about how we're all on autopilot driving around in the morning. You know, we don't really notice stuff, you know, especially if we're doing our usual route to work. Anyway, so somehow he came up with this idea of like, dressing me up in a costume and sticking me on a sidewalk and filming people's reactions as their sort of subconscious mind gets broken out of their zombie state or whatever. So he's like, Chris Chris Chris, we've gotta go and like, you know, find you a costume. So we went down to a costume store. I found one, a Bumblebee outfit, and we found a storyline, found a briefcase out of a prop shop, and I was a, a bumblebee going to work

Caroline: 1:04:36

Busy bee.

Chris Baron: 1:04:37

I was a busy bee. And, it was just where those, again, it kind of, it came back to me like that very first experience being the sort of KGB agent, like dressing up and, and getting on camera. And I was like, this is the strangest thing. Also, it was so hot. It was the middle of the summer, it was like 40 degrees, which is whatever, like 95 degrees Fahrenheit and I was in this like synthetic bee costume with a big head, and I'll send you a photo later.

Caroline: 1:05:01

Yeah.

Chris Baron: 1:05:01

That was, that was a real seminal moment. But I mean the, the more dramatic ones came a little bit later in my career. Because I guess, you know, you, you, you again earning your stripes, you know, I got, you know, experience on a film shoot and I was like, great, you can do a film shoot in the UK. Then you're like, okay, great, we're gonna send you abroad. We're gonna send you to America or wherever to do international film shoots and then after that it's like, okay, you can do international film shoots. Okay, can you do hostile environment stuff? You know, like, can you go to the weird and wonderful places? And, and you know, not only stay focused and do your job in those kinds of environments, but deliver the goods, you know, stay creative and manage to solve problems, in really tricky environments. So, I got an opportunity, actually the same director who was on the bumblebee shoot I just mentioned, he was the one who recommended me for a, a large National Geographic project called One Strange Rock, Which was about 2016, 2017, I think came out. Will Smith was the host of the show, they had some of the most extraordinary shoots, on, on there. You know, I was abseiling into active volcanoes and not just filming in there, but we were living inside the crater for a week with like gas masks and, Tents and dealing with lava bombs. And, you know, we couldn't take the gas masks off because of this sort of filament, microscopic glass that gets in your lungs and destroys your lungs.

Caroline: 1:06:21

Wow. So you just changed out the cartridge, like, like, like how often do people wear? Well, I mean, as scientists occasionally you'd have to put on your respirator, right? And like that thing would last forever until your next annual fit test. But now if you're living there for a week, is it like six hours, eight hours?

Chris Baron: 1:06:40

We depends on how the wind was blowing. If the wind was blowing the right way, okay, cool, we can, we got fresh air. But you know, if we're, if the wind had changed and was sort of, you know, all the, the volcanic, you know, gases were coming back through to where we were filming, we put the gas, we would sleep with them as well, just a precaution, we had, we had filters. I can't remember how often we changed them, but you know, that,, the climb in and out, the crater on the inside was a good like 400 meters, which is like, I don't know like several hundred feet. I don't know. Could be a lot. that was so that, that was extraordinary. And, and we, we had to evacuate that shoot early, a day early because the volcano. It's just a lava lake, so it's not supposed to erupt, but from the side vantage.

Caroline: 1:07:22

Interesting,

Chris Baron: 1:07:22

it started erupting

Caroline: 1:07:24

interesting.

Chris Baron: 1:07:25

And it was sort of spewing lava bombs. So, I've been on shoots, in caves, in New Mexico, really deep, dark caverns that, again, go in and live there for a week because we were filming so deep in the cave that, that we had to live there, you know, for efficiency reasons. And, you know, again, abseiling 200 feet, into these caves and crawling through tight squeezes and some of the most extraordinary places I've ever seen in my entire life. I'm trying to think even shoots outside of that. You know, I had an amazing shoot with the actor Joseph Fiennes, his cousin, the Explorer Ranaulph Fiennes. We were traveling through Egypt for about five weeks we had, you know, bomb scares and,'cause we, we are, you know travelling through parts. I mean, we had, celebrities with us, so we had an armed escort, and at one point we had to have a bomb squad with us just because of the threat that we, that we, that we had. And in that region, I did a, a, another amazing shoot for Discovery Channel. Again, when I was a, a sort of assistant producer where, which was traveling through all of South America, we spent about 10 weeks, we started in, in shoots. The story started in Brazil and essentially was the, the, the two people on camera had to land in Rio de Janeiro with nothing but a backpack in a passport, and make their way over 10 weeks to the top through earning odd jobs and favors and whatever

Caroline: 1:08:46

Wow. Yeah.

Chris Baron: 1:08:48

Uh,

Caroline: 1:08:48

Yeah.

Chris Baron: 1:08:49

Definitely not hijacking, hitchhiking. Um, and we were the follow crew, so we were making sure that they had, you know, um, they were filming a lot of their own stuff, but we were filming, you know, what we call all the B roll

Caroline: 1:09:01

Yeah. Yeah.

Chris Baron: 1:09:02

And, uh, so it was extraordinary going up through the weirdest and wonderful parts of South America. Again, slightly sketchy, slightly dodgy going through checkpoints at point, at times. And, um, uh, more recently I was filming, uh, in minefields at certain parts of the world, you know, uh, with live minds and touching distance

Caroline: 1:09:21

Wow. Yeah.

Chris Baron: 1:09:23

blowing up munitions. Um, so it's been, it's honestly, again, as I said at the beginning, one of the best parts of this job is that we get to go places that that few people get to go. And that's such an exciting part for me, um, is it's kind of one of the big reasons that I do it,

Caroline: 1:09:41

Mm-hmm.

Chris Baron: 1:09:42

you know? Um, and I, I could, I could go on all day about all the,

Caroline: 1:09:47

I mean, it's fascinating. It's,

Chris Baron: 1:09:48

to, to

Caroline: 1:09:49

and,

Chris Baron: 1:09:49

my head about other cool stuff I've done.

Caroline: 1:09:51

And so as you dream, do you wake up in the middle of a volcano or do you, do you like concoct things together? Interestingly, like your dreams have to be so vivid because of the experiences. And even like whenever somebody's is in somewhere, like let's say you're in something like Disney and you're in the avatar ride or whatever, right? Like, and then if you're trying to capture a couple photos, it just doesn't compare. And yet the things that you captured are so imagination evoking, fascinating, amazing. And yet there's more, right? Because if I'm like, but wait, this is like, what was it really like to be in this whole environment? And so I feel like your dreams are not just like you missed a paper and you woke up late for class. Like they've gotta be.

Chris Baron: 1:10:42

I, again, like been so, so lucky, uh, to do the stuff that I've done. And again, like even just the one that comes to mind now is that I love heights and I've always been a really big fan of heights, which is such an unusual thing. I love being up high.

Caroline: 1:10:59

Yeah.

Chris Baron: 1:10:59

And so the one, if it was one to dream about, I had this extraordinary shoot in Hong Kong, which, uh, the story was about, um, lightning and the power of lightning and, and

Caroline: 1:11:08

Oh wow. Yeah.

Chris Baron: 1:11:09

And so the, the director, it wasn't me at the time, but the director had come up with this idea that's like, okay, there's a lot of lightning in Hong Kong. Basically, it was my job to find a city with a lot of lightning, a problem one. So I was like, okay, great. Let's narrow it down to Hong Kong.

Caroline: 1:11:23

Yeah.

Chris Baron: 1:11:24

What west? A lot of places, a lot of skyscrapers. Okay. Hong Kong's good, you know. And where do they hit A lot. Okay. It's still Hong Kong. There must be a lot of lightning conductors at the top of these buildings, and there must be people that monitor those lightning conductors. Great. So we narrowed all that sort of stuff down, found a building. I went, I flew to Hong Kong to do a wrecky and to build relationships with a particular, well we had a fixer set up a lot of meetings with different skyscraper management companies. And of them allowed us to essentially film their, their, um, lightning conductor engineer climbing to the very tippy top of the spire, which itself was like stories or something.

Caroline: 1:12:01

Yeah.

Chris Baron: 1:12:02

was just literally a narrow pole with a ladder on it.

Caroline: 1:12:05

I,

Chris Baron: 1:12:05

And, um. They basically said, well, you can't fly a drone up there because of various reasons. Um, uh, actually no, they can fly a drone, but we wanted, we wanted some closeup shots of the conductor because a drone can't get close enough for proximity reasons. so I was like, well, I can, I've got a, I've got climbing experience and I had gotten my sort of IRATA, international rope access training, um, level

Caroline: 1:12:33

Yeah.

Chris Baron: 1:12:34

So I got my gear on, grabbed a camera and climbed to the top of this incredibly thin spire on a ladder.

Caroline: 1:12:42

With a camera.

Chris Baron: 1:12:43

I've got with a camera strapped around me. And essentially I was sat on sort of a dinner plate sized, um, plate at the top of the tower, top of the spire, looking down on

Caroline: 1:12:57

Wow.

Chris Baron: 1:12:58

engineer as he was sort of performing maintenance on the lightning conductor. And that that was a moment where you're looking down, I've got this wide angle lens and I see the conductor obviously, but then just Hong Kong, the entire

Caroline: 1:13:10

Wow.

Chris Baron: 1:13:12

cityscape of Hong Kong spread up. And I was just like, this is the most surreal pinch me moment. And that is a real life one. And the other thing is that we, we had to come down quickly because a typhoon had been coming in that afternoon. So we were like filming

Caroline: 1:13:28

Oh.

Chris Baron: 1:13:28

came in and the tower and the spire started doing this.

Caroline: 1:13:32

Nice.

Chris Baron: 1:13:32

I heard on the radio like the guy's like, you need to come down now. Like right now, right

Caroline: 1:13:36

Yeah, yeah,

Chris Baron: 1:13:37

We didn't make it down, we only made it halfway down. There's a little like safety point. So I had to wrap the camera in my, in my sort of shirt,

Caroline: 1:13:45

yeah.

Chris Baron: 1:13:45

to protect it from the rain that was now pelting us from the back. And I had to wait for the squall to subside so that we

Caroline: 1:13:51

Oh

Chris Baron: 1:13:52

the rest of the tower. And, uh, that, that was just, I got down there completely drenched the camera was fine, got the amazing shots, and, uh, again, just pumping with adrenaline.

Caroline: 1:14:02

Yeah. Yeah. And see that's the thing too, that like how you're part of how you're hardwired and conditioned is just like, yes, this is fun versus some others, like just getting rained on is like their worst experience ever. I can't believe. You know? And that like that's, that's so fascinating. Okay. I'm kind of curious, did you ever go explore that trail down to the bottom of the Grand Canyon?

Chris Baron: 1:14:29

I don't think I've been back to the Grand Canyon since, I

Caroline: 1:14:33

Interesting. Yeah. It,

Chris Baron: 1:14:34

have not, but,

Caroline: 1:14:35

sorry to unlock that for you now.

Chris Baron: 1:14:37

Yeah. Now that I think about it, maybe it was like this, this is the thing, like the world is filled with so many cool places and I was like, man, I've done, I was, even though I was a

Caroline: 1:14:47

Yeah. Yeah,

Chris Baron: 1:14:48

the Grand Canyon,

Caroline: 1:14:49

yeah, yeah.

Chris Baron: 1:14:50

but yeah, for sure, if I had the opportunity again, I would probably do hike to the bottom and then done do some sort of kayaking or rafting or something at the bottom. Yeah.

Caroline: 1:14:58

Interesting, interesting. Yeah. I think Disney has, uh, Disney Adventures has a thing where they do take people on trips, like kind of like where choreographed cooler vacations that you can think of on your own. So just not, you may be able to leverage connections there. Just say

Chris Baron: 1:15:12

go. Yeah.

Caroline: 1:15:13

Disney Parks, Disney Cruise, Disney Plus Disney Adventures has that thing. Anyway, um, that's, that's fascinating. Okay. I could talk to you for like, I don't know, probably a whole year. A whole year, and still not be anything but fascinated. I'm curious, um, now from this vantage point, how do you define authentic success for you?

Chris Baron: 1:15:41

An authentic success. I mean, I guess that again, it's, it's going back to kinda what we were saying at the beginning is it's more that, you know, you're not trying to please other people. You

Caroline: 1:15:51

Hmm.

Chris Baron: 1:15:51

Um, you're not trying to compare yourself to others. You're not trying to make other people proud. You're trying to compare yourself to one person, and that's yourself.

Caroline: 1:16:00

Yeah.

Chris Baron: 1:16:01

uh, does this, whatever it is, does it feel like it gives you purpose? Does it feel like you can continue doing this for 20 years? And I guess on the smaller scale, like are you proud? Have, have you made yourself proud of the, my case. Have I done a project or, or whatever? Are you proud of the work that you're doing? Um, if not. For me personally, I would say that I was unsuccessful at that particular project

Caroline: 1:16:26

Mm.

Chris Baron: 1:16:27

that particular, um, you know, show that I did. If I do have a sense of pride, even if it fails critically or whatever, um, or I'm proud of parts of it, that's still a success for me. Um, it's trying to see, I think that's the most important thing is it's not a success in other people's eyes and

Caroline: 1:16:44

Correct.

Chris Baron: 1:16:45

your own eyes, you know, and, and I think that's hard when everyone, especially, I can only speak from sort of documentary filmmaking kinda stuff, when all the accolades and people winning awards and trying to win BAFTAs and, you know, Emmys and, and whatnot, and for sure that is 100% a, a measure of success, but it's just one measure of success. There are many measures of success and, um, ultimately the one I think that you have to stay true to is that do you feel like you are proud of what you've done? You know, um, and, and that, that I think is, is the most important.

Caroline: 1:17:20

Yeah, that's beautiful. I, I like it to also be like, is this, are you loving your life and is your career fueling your ability to enjoy your life even further? I think yours definitely, from living on all, all over the world to now settling on Indonesia, continuing to do really fascinating things. And I also feel like the fact that you had sales training at a, you know, it, I talked to, um, a gentleman. In an earlier episode, I had actually met him in person, his name's Jeffrey Kiplinger. His book was from Expert to Entrepreneur and how as scientists, it's so tricky to get out of that logic brain into the customer experience and how to connect with that. So even the fact that you had that so early, even though you didn't necessarily love sales, I'm sure that that has served you in your ability to highlight how you can be amazing for a particular shoot and opportunity. Aside from your fascination with sports and this beautiful combination and your kind of fun to get along with too, like, yeah. Anyway.

Chris Baron: 1:18:24

Half, half of half of this job, of being a producer, a documentary producer, is convincing people to come on the shoot, to be a part of the project,

Caroline: 1:18:32

Yeah.

Chris Baron: 1:18:32

you know, take time outta the day, often for free. I will add, and maybe even expending some of their own resources, um, for, you know, for the benefit of being on the

Caroline: 1:18:40

Yeah.

Chris Baron: 1:18:40

you've gotta, you've, it's people skills. It's just basic people skills. And I, you know, I think a lot of my upbringing has helped me develop. I can go to anywhere from all over the world and find a connection with people.

Caroline: 1:18:53

Yeah.

Chris Baron: 1:18:54

I think that is something that's helped me so much. Again, I was developed that sales career, I think to learn how to, know, again, further hone that communication. But again, it was, it was, it was honed, it was almost feels like it was all set up to really be honed for my work in, in documentaries as a producer and as a director. Because you're doing all the, the behind the scenes stuff and as a director, you're communicating

Caroline: 1:19:17

Yeah,

Chris Baron: 1:19:17

your crew and your talent on screen and trying to whatever's in your head as a vision inside their head and get them to execute it. And, um, if you can't communicate and have those people skills, you're not gonna get very far.

Caroline: 1:19:30

that's right. That's right. It's so fascinating. It's so fascinating. Alright, how do people find you? How do people connect with you?

Chris Baron: 1:19:40

Absolutely. I mean, uh, you can find me if you wanna see my personal stuff and I'm, I'm on Instagram, um,@chrisbaron7. But, uh, I'm also, I've got a podcast as well that, uh, would be great for people to check out. It's called No Ordinary Monday and we essentially, on the show, I bring on people who've had amazing career experiences. You know, it could be, um, I've just had a secret service agent, um, who has an amazing story of catching a, uh, the king of counterfeit.

Caroline: 1:20:10

Oh wow.

Chris Baron: 1:20:11

I've had a pilot who had crashed, landed in the Pacific Ocean and had to be rescued. And this incredible story. Um, I've got, you know, uh, all sorts of weird and wonderful careers from Parapsychologists who are studying the science of ghosts to, um, firefighters who've have survived PTSD from the

Caroline: 1:20:31

Hmm.

Chris Baron: 1:20:31

had. So, you know, it's all kind of very story driven. Um, and I'm kind of harking back to my skills as a documentary storyteller, both as an interviewer and the way that I construct the episodes into, they kind of build this story of the character and then I throw them into, you know, the most or reliving the most extreme day of their career.

Caroline: 1:20:51

Hmm.

Chris Baron: 1:20:52

And a lot of the time that is, be death defying. I've got a cave scientist who almost died in a flood in China. Um, or actually one of the first I ever did, and one of the sort of inspirations for the podcast was my uncle, who was essentially a, a paramedic in Scotland during the Lockerbie bombing.

Caroline: 1:21:10

Oh

Chris Baron: 1:21:11

a lot of, I guess that was 1980s, 89 maybe, uh, but probably a lot of your listeners of a certain age would be familiar

Caroline: 1:21:19

yeah.

Chris Baron: 1:21:19

which is a devastating plane, uh, bombing over Scotland. Um, uh, with a lot of Americans on board. But everyone died. But my uncle was essentially the first on the scene,

Caroline: 1:21:30

Uh

Chris Baron: 1:21:31

a paramedic and was looking for survivors. And his recounting of that story, um, was just so, uh. just so incredible, you

Caroline: 1:21:41

mm.

Chris Baron: 1:21:42

way he tells it, you know, from the moment he gets a phone call to driving out in the storming rain, to, you know, trying to find dazed locals whose houses has been crushed by plane engines to finding the, the, the iconic, um, nose cone of the plane, just la this resting upside down in a field just incredible. So that's essentially what we do on the show. Uh, and they're not always as harrowing. They're, they're fun as well. You know, I just had a really interesting one about a, um, an orchestra conductor who was paid to enter, uh, to come to, uh, a billionaire's birthday party.

Caroline: 1:22:17

Oh wow.

Chris Baron: 1:22:17

uh, was just this. And it was basically, he was in an undisclosed location. He was not allowed to know where it was or what he'd be doing. He just had to get on a plane to an undisclosed location in the middle of, let's say, one of the former Soviet Union countries. And, uh, it just, this story he tells is just so chaotic, like this vodka fueled

Caroline: 1:22:41

Well,

Chris Baron: 1:22:41

weird adventure of, of calamity. And, uh, so yeah, they're, they're fun stories.

Caroline: 1:22:47

uh, it's fascinating. I, I had an opportunity to listen to a few episodes and it is amazing. So, uh, the work that you do just brings so much joy, fascination, imagination, all of those, whether it's a picture or whether it's a podcast or whether it's a video. But thank you, Chris, for the impact, for listening to yourself, for continuing to choose what you felt was your more of your purpose or more of what you'd enjoy. What would do you would be fascinated with, because it really shines through your work. And thank you for sharing parts of your story, uh, with us here. It's been fascinating. I genuinely appreciate it.

Chris Baron: 1:23:25

Thank you so much, Caroline. It's been, uh, such a fun conversation.

Caroline: 1:23:28

Thank you so much.

1:23:30

Chris, thank you for sharing a definition of authentic success that is grounded and true. You named that shift so clearly. Success stops being about approval and becomes about self-respect, pride in your work and alignment with who you are. Thank you for showing us that awe is not random. It's a signal, and when you follow it, you build a life you actually love. Thanks for listening to Your Next Success with Dr. Caroline Sangal Remember, authentic success is yours to define and includes aligning your career to support the life you want.