0:03

Have you ever reached a moment where the life you built started to feel too small for who you've become? That quiet restlessness, the loss of curiosity, the sense that you're performing instead of living those signals show up long before you're ready to name them. Today, Shelley helps us understand what that moment really is. This is the Your Next Success podcast, and I am your host, Dr. Caroline Sangal. I am a life first career coach and strategist on a mission to normalize questioning your career because I believe each of us is made on purpose for a purpose only we can fulfill. The longer we live out of alignment with who we are, what we do best, and why we are here, the more we miss out and the more the world misses out on what only we can give the Your Next Success Podcast is where we explore how to build a career that truly fuels your life. We talk about self-discovery, smart job, search strategies, professional growth. And you will hear stories from people who have navigated big career transitions themselves. So you can create a life, first career and become your own version of authentic success, one that is aligned, meaningful, and truly yours. Today's guest is Shelley McIntyre, a reinvention partner for Gen X professionals who are fed up with corporate life and ready for something that actually fits. Shelley spent decades in tech strategy and consulting before realizing she had been climbing ladders that no longer aligned with who she was becoming. Her unraveling led her into grief recovery work, immersive theater exploration, and ultimately coaching where she now helps midlife professionals reconnect with their values, reclaim their curiosity, and design a next chapter that feels like their own. She's the creator of Burn the Map, a coaching practice and podcast that guides people through the emotional truth of reinvention, identity shifts, belonging, agency, and the quiet courage to choose something different. This episode explores the deeper emotional landscape beneath midlife reinvention. The signals you notice long before you're ready to act on them. We talk about why values become louder in midlife, how competence without connection drains your energy and what happens when safety returns and curiosity comes back online? Shelley also breaks down the moment she realized the corporate world no longer held her future and the unfolding that happened next. If you have ever sensed you are meant for something more aligned, more human, or more creative, this episode is for you.

Caroline 3:01

Welcome Shelley to Your Next Success. I'm so excited to be talking with you this morning. Seriously looking forward to this conversation.

Shelley McIntyre 3:09

Likewise. Thanks for having me.

Caroline 3:12

Awesome. Awesome. So we're gonna get to all the great work that you do. Now you help a lot of Gen X people. We're gonna get to that and your specialties and your focus. But can we dial it way back to like childhood? Where did you grow up? I know, I know. Like way, way back. I'm trying to understand, you know, were any earlier influences or early things that you did kind of giving you a little bit of a, a light into what you end up doing and choosing to do now, but where'd you grow up? What was life like as a young Shelley?

Shelley McIntyre 3:48

Yeah, I grew up in Toronto, Canada, and then spent a stint in the prairies. In this cold, desolate, it's not a wasteland anymore. I think Saskatoon is probably really nice now, but back when I was there, it was just really cold and a weird place to be a kid. But yeah, you know, I hadn't really thought until you asked at this very moment. I hadn't really considered the connection of what I loved to do when I was young with what I'm doing now. 'cause it seemed so unrelated.

Caroline 4:25

Yep.

Shelley McIntyre 4:27

When I was 11, I started doing community theater shows with adults and I was around very talented people and we were singing and dancing and in this intense environment where everybody would get really close really fast, like you would develop these intense bonds with people. And I went on to then do theater in high school and choir. I sang a lot in high school. And again, we would be in these small groups where we were like glue and, and I really loved those environments where we were coming together to create something beautiful, but we had to know each other deeply that well.

Caroline 5:19

And traditional high school, you know, plays and all that, you're right, we had to appreciate each other's parts that they're playing how their part related to our part and how we could all create something magical greater than each one of us were. what were some of these performances and how did you even get into that at age 11? Because that's not the standard. A lot of people don't even know that's going on, right? Unless you go and you're like, oh, there's an Orphan Annie. How did she get to be Orphan Annie?

Shelley McIntyre 5:51

Yeah, exactly.

Caroline 5:52

Is she going to school? What's happening? You know?

Shelley McIntyre 5:55

Yeah. Yeah, I think I took an acting class when I was young, and then it was just like, that's the environment that we were in. So people would talk about auditions coming up and there was only one big community theater in town, so I was like, this is what I'm doing now. And I guess my parents were fine with that.

Caroline 6:15

What did they do for work? Your parents.

Shelley McIntyre 6:19

My mom was an event planner, so she was always running around town, volunteering at things or organizing events, and my dad was in tech.

Caroline 6:29

Ha. Interesting. I love also how sometimes family influences can, can help us. Well, when we're making decisions at a young age. We know what our parents have done, and sometimes there's generational lines of similar kinds of industries or focus or helping, and so that's kind of neat.

Shelley McIntyre 6:52

Yeah, but I think the big influence is what they both did on the side. So they were both musicians. I mean, not professional musicians, but my mom still plays the flute. Like she's been playing in a concert band for 45 years. Like it's incredible. And my dad played the guitar, but when I was really young, my mom was a puppeteer. Yeah, she was with this in Toronto. She was with this um, junior women's opera committee that did puppet shows like operetta puppet shows for kids that, like the kids of the people who would come and attend the opera. Being around those puppets and knowing that that was happening and hanging out in the rehearsal rooms that like imprinted on me very early and her taking me to theater imprinted me on me very early. So that was always part of the deal in my family,

Caroline 7:47

Do you play any musical instruments?

Shelley McIntyre 7:49

I play the piano poorly and the ukulele even more poorly. Yes.

Caroline 7:55

do you have fun while you're doing it?

Shelley McIntyre 7:58

Yeah, I mean, I, I played piano for a really long time. I took lessons for a very long time, and I think because I learned classical music, I developed a great love of classical, but I could never really sit down and just plunk something out.

Caroline 8:16

Yeah. Yeah.

Shelley McIntyre 8:17

I didn't learn improvisation or jazz or how to like be loose and have fun with it. So I always had this like a tension relationship with, with the piano, unfortunately,

Caroline 8:29

I gotta get this right, because this is how this goes.

Shelley McIntyre 8:32

Because I'm going to an adjudication and will be evaluated by strangers. Yeah.

Caroline 8:37

Yes. Interesting, interesting. Okay. So as high school kind of went on and you were trying to consider, you know, whether to go to college or not, what to study, tell me a little bit about that phase and what went into it.

Shelley McIntyre 8:52

Yeah, so I thought the only rational choice would be to study theater in college. So I started off as a theater major and as soon as I got into the school and I was around these other folks who were driven by their solar plexus to be in theater. Like I remember being in a theater class with somebody and we were all being asked why we are here? Why are you here? And

Caroline 9:23

Why are you here? Even if it's like in theater at like an early,

Shelley McIntyre 9:28

You're 18. You don't know.

Caroline 9:30

I have kids that age-ish. I'm not sure that they know. I don't know that I know, but it's, boy, it's fun to find out, you know?

Shelley McIntyre 9:38

Right. And when you're 18, you think you know

Caroline 9:41

Absolutely. Yes.

Shelley McIntyre 9:43

Because you know everything when you're 18, so, but I, I recognized, like I was seeing all these fellow students and they were like, I must act, theater is in my soul. This is the only thing I can do. And I looked around and I was like, oh no, I'm in the wrong place.

Caroline 10:02

Oh.

Shelley McIntyre 10:03

I do not have the same drive that all of you have. So I thought I need to get outta here. So after a year, I got on a train and I moved across the country to Vancouver and switched schools and, kind of leaned more into the communication side. But once I got there, then people were talking about like, these it was a very crazy political program and I was not, I just didn't understand it. I was not down with it and I thought, ah, I've done it again. I still haven't found my place. So I bounced around a few more times. Ended up getting a degree in business because it just seemed like, well, I'm here and this department is here and it seems practical, and I guess I'll do this.

Caroline 11:00

Hmm. Okay. And so did you have any, were you getting paid for work during any time of the collegiate experience? Did you do any internships or try it out or just after you graduated, then what?

Shelley McIntyre 11:14

Oh no. Oh yeah. I ended up in New Mexico

Caroline 11:19

Okay.

Shelley McIntyre 11:20

Because I followed a boy and so. Moved around a bunch. Ended up in Santa Fe, New Mexico

Caroline 11:28

Was it cold?

Shelley McIntyre 11:30

Yeah, I mean, in the winters it's at 7,000 feet, so it's a little chilly, but still it was a beautiful, beautiful place and ended up getting a business degree there. But the whole time I was at that college, I was working for them full-time. So I got a job at, in the film school, being like the department administrator. And that was actually my first full-time job where I worked full-time during the day and then also took classes in the evenings and fitting them in.

Caroline 12:01

So were your classes free because you were working for them?

Shelley McIntyre 12:05

I got a pretty steep discount and, and was very lucky to, you know, not have to take out huge student loans because I was working full-time for the college. Yeah.

Caroline 12:17

How did that even come about that you thought that would be something fun to try?

Shelley McIntyre 12:23

Well, I started as a film student and I was also supporting myself, so I had to work. So in addition to working full-time at the college, I was also a radio dj, a cocktail waitress. Like I had a ton of different jobs during that time. It was pretty stressful, honestly. Yeah.

Caroline 12:44

And they're also all dealing with people in different capacities and allowing you to understand a variety of what's happening on the surface. And for those that did get close to you, deeper down and how to relate to them. So it's like you're still building this, these tools that are so fundamental

Shelley McIntyre 13:02

Yeah. And I mean, developing relationships with people in the college was great. I had a particular relationship with my listeners when I was a radio dj, 'cause I did that for a long time too, on the side.

Caroline 13:16

Yeah.

Shelley McIntyre 13:16

They didn't necessarily have that same relationship with me, but they felt like they knew me because they were so familiar with my voice and I was so consistent. And I remember like the cocktail waitressing was so transactional that I was terrible at it. I just didn't, I never loved it. I didn't have the relationships. I couldn't talk to anybody. It was just people giving me orders and like it was not for me.

Caroline 13:42

Right? So you're still learning. Cause I'm, I feel like there's clues all along the path. Some of them we just kind of override and as not important, not needed. That's not what I'm supposed to do. And so we kind of go through life until we reach. Hopefully at an age or a stage where like, you know what? enough already. I just wanna be different. I wanna be me.

Shelley McIntyre 14:10

Yeah, and I will say that if that takes 30 years, it's okay.

Caroline 14:17

If it takes 60, it's okay. If it takes 80, it's okay. Absolutely. The day that you start questioning is the day that you're giving yourself an opportunity to learn a little bit more. And nothing wrong

Shelley McIntyre 14:29

Absolutely.

Caroline 14:30

There's no right time. It's just what's your time? think, yeah.

Shelley McIntyre 14:35

Yeah, I think we, a lot of people fall into the trap of looking back at previous decisions that we've made. Like I look at, you know, taking particular jobs or being with particular people, and I judge the decisions of past me using the wisdom of current me, and it's not fair. Right?

Caroline 14:59

Yeah, and I, I also went through that judging. I, I think everybody does. It's quite natural now. I'm more like a compassion. Oh You thought that was what you had to do. I see. It's okay. Little me, you know,

Shelley McIntyre 15:16

Yeah.

Caroline 15:16

Over. We're out of that.

Shelley McIntyre 15:17

Yeah.

Caroline 15:18

You know? But.

Shelley McIntyre 15:19

Yeah, and, and the decisions that we made when we were younger were adaptations to our environments and our upbringing, and they made complete sense.

Caroline 15:30

Yeah. Well, or they just seem like what you had to, I'll, I'll think that the lens has, and I'd love to, to hear. Your part, your view on it. My, my view is at any career transition or something of that sort, a lot of times people are focusing on the salary, the title, the location. Cool. And there's more below the surface that's more like. Where are you in your career development stage? You know, are you, are you open and 18 and everything is, is a possibility and you're willing to try it? Or are you 50 and you're like, Hmm, no, I know who I am a bit more and I will not do that and I will do this, or, and then there's abilities. So how are you hardwired? What are those things that give you energy? Take it away as far as how you're built, the skills, the things you spent, time, effort, and energy to learn your interests. Those fluctuate all the time. Your personal style, are you an introvert, an extrovert, a generalist, a specialist? How do you communicate? Because that can influence your energy and how you're showing up at work by just being who you are and how well that's fitting into the role that you're in, your family, the one you came from, the one you have now, your goals, your values. So my lens is like. look at all of these things over a set period of time and really see how they're in. Any one of them can influence your decision, but all the others are also coming into play. If you realize later something's missing, something's not quite right, perhaps one of those other areas needs a little light to understand.

Shelley McIntyre 17:04

Yeah. And I, I love that you kind of mapped out that whole framework so clearly, because I think in hindsight we look back and we don't really, we're not really aware that. Some of these things were coming into play and some of them were in shadow.

Caroline 17:22

Yes. At all. At all, at all. How do you usually look at that? At the framework when you're, when you're trying to help somebody. I know we're skipping. We're gonna skip up back and around and sideways, just like a real conversation.

Shelley McIntyre 17:34

I'm good with it. I, I definitely start with what you value and how you know you value it.

Caroline 17:42

Aha.

Shelley McIntyre 17:43

Because, you know, we can say, oh, I have these values, and you can, you know, pick five words from a list and say, those are tidy and sound nice, but unless you can prove it out with your behavior and behavior that can be observed by other people, then you're not really living into it. So what are the values that you have that are evidence-based essentially?

Caroline 18:11

I see. Yeah. Not just the ideal, but how well are you demonstrating that value on the regular?

Shelley McIntyre 18:19

Yeah.

Caroline 18:19

So, back in the, a few years ago, I would say I value my family so much. My husband is the most important relationship to me, and oh, I'm the mother of two children. I love them so dearly. That was a statement and it was a value, and yet what I was displaying was putting everybody and everything else work-wise ahead of those relationships, yelling at those people and expecting them to just always be there and love me anyway, because I'm either the wife or the mom and boy, they should just keep rooting for me and understand that what I'm doing is important, reality.

Shelley McIntyre 19:03

What was that like to realize?

Caroline 19:07

That was like a kick in the gut and the face, and I'm kind of being dragged down all at once. And, and kind of one of those like scary movies where you're like watching through just the cracks of your fingers because you don't really wanna see what comes next.

Shelley McIntyre 19:22

Yeah.

Caroline 19:23

And yet, the director and the actor in the movie. I'm making it all.

Shelley McIntyre 19:30

Isn't that the pits?

Caroline 19:31

Right. Just

Shelley McIntyre 19:32

Yep.

Caroline 19:33

And, and I'm glad I started questioning it and, 'cause see, once you're aware, then you can choose, Right? That's the, so yeah.

Shelley McIntyre 19:48

And I think there's, there can also be a gap between awareness and recognizing that you can choose and choosing.

Caroline 19:57

Oh, for sure that that was at probably a four year gap. How about for you? So let's, let's catch people up. So you work at the film school, you get a cool degree and in business, and then what, at what point do you transfer out of that and then go into some other entity and what do you choose to do in those instances?

Shelley McIntyre 20:20

Yeah, I followed a friend who I was living with in Albuquerque by then, and she wanted to move to Seattle, so we moved. And it's funny, I heard that you had to Tigrilla Gardenia on your show not that long ago. Yeah, we worked together at Real Networks 25 years ago.

Caroline 20:43

Oh, how awesome. And how cool how you both have blossomed because, sorry, can't bring her, you know, into this space. That's cool. And did you, had you kept up with her those times, or did you just see her on pod match and you're like, well, hey, neat.

Shelley McIntyre 20:58

Yeah, I, I was, I've been aware of what she's been up to over the years, but yeah. But we haven't kept up. It was, it was fun to hear her on your show.

Caroline 21:06

Oh, that's awesome. Yeah, I enjoyed that. And I'm like, wait, what? Like if you watch the video part of it, you can actually see my mind being blown at sometimes because I'm like, like, this is not something that I knew. Wait, okay. There it was. Like there's a, there's an underground rave kind of party scene. What? Okay. Plants make music. What? There's some magical place in the mountains. What, like a need test. It was a fun, if anybody hasn't listened to that, after listening to this episode with all the wisdom and nuggets that Shelley's bringing down, feel free to do that one later. So, well, that's cool. Okay, so what was your role at Real Networks then? And.

Shelley McIntyre 21:50

A bunch of different roles and ended up doing like content work di you know, helping create like this animated film festival. It was just all over the place.

Caroline 22:01

Yeah.

Shelley McIntyre 22:01

It was very fun. And I went on from there to do other jobs in the tech world and then moved into a consulting role, which was also fascinating and fun at this little boutique consulting company and,

Caroline 22:19

What

Shelley McIntyre 22:19

And I had always.

Caroline 22:20

Like at the consulting company? What were they consulting about?

Shelley McIntyre 22:25

Oh, so. We did a lot of work with Bill Gates and also the Gates Foundation. So we were looking at really big systemic issues in, you know, financial services for the poor and Africa and global agriculture and education and social services. Like it was all over the map, but it was fascinating. It was fascinating work.

Caroline 22:54

And. Seems like you could kind of draw the line between what you're working on actually making a difference in impact and has value, or is that just my like

Shelley McIntyre 23:07

That's the hope. That's the hope.

Caroline 23:10

And then it's still a corporate environment.

Shelley McIntyre 23:13

You know, this is the other kernel of what I'm doing now. I believe

Caroline 23:18

Okay.

Shelley McIntyre 23:19

So, one of the things that I noticed when I was working in consulting and, and frankly in my previous tech jobs too, is that we would work for a long time on creating some kind of strategy or some kind of product that could be rolled out and solve a lot of problems. And, and so for example, we would like work on a strategy for a year. With the leaders of an organization. And then we would go roll it out to employees and employees would say, no, thank you. And we would say, what? No, this is a really good strategy. It's like totally research backed. We've been working on it for a long time, and the employees would say, you didn't include us, so we're not going to implement it. And I thought, oh, what is happening here? They're resisting so hard that there's something to pay attention to here.

Caroline 24:19

Hmm.

Shelley McIntyre 24:20

And I started getting really interested in the nature of resistance and what resistance is demonstrating. And the more I dug into it, the more I realized that they were grieving. And

Caroline 24:37

Yeah.

Shelley McIntyre 24:38

yeah, go ahead.

Caroline 24:39

Tell me a little bit about that. So typically people think about grieving, like, losing your parent, losing a pet, da da, da, and it can be losing a job and in this case seems like it can be losing control or losing the opportunity to be, have your voice heard, et cetera, et cetera. This is, this is something that many people just completely gloss over, don't even acknowledge. It's not in their awareness. So help bring this to light, Shelley.

Shelley McIntyre 25:11

Yeah. Yeah. So like at the very basic level, when we think about grief, we might think about losing a person. So. Yes, that person's physical body might not be in your presence anymore, but what is it that you really are losing in that moment? You're losing connection with them you're losing familiarity. You're losing the ability to touch, you're losing your ability to have banter with them. You feel so comfortable, right? There's so many different aspects to that loss, and when we think of something in the work environment, it really like, I love using self-determination theory. It's such an easy shorthand to. To explain why grief shows up everywhere. So in self-determination theory, we need three things to feel content as human beings. A sense of competence, feeling good at something, autonomy, you know, having agency or control over our decisions and connect. Connection with other people and in a work environment, if you are foisted with a strategy that you have to implement or something is canceled or there's a layoff. Like there's a lot of work environments that can mess with all of those aspects. Let's say I am trying to roll out a strategy and you don't wanna do it. You're looking at that saying, Hey, if I start doing this new thing, my job is gonna change and I'm not gonna be good at the new thing that I have to do. So my competence is being threatened. You're telling me what to do. So automatically my autonomy is being threatened. And my team might change and my connections will be threatened too. That's three potential major losses that I would have to grapple with. And my whole wiring is for loss aversion strategies. So I'm gonna do everything I can not to experience the feelings of loss that you're about to create for me. So I'm gonna say no.

Caroline 27:24

Imagine what your life would be like if your career aligned with who you are, what you do best, and actually fueled the life you want. At Next Success, we support all ages and stages through career transitions from students exploring majors or careers to job seekers actively searching or re-imagining their next move to professionals committed to self-awareness and leadership growth. Stay connected and explore what's possible at nextsuccesscareers.com and follow @nextsuccessmethod on LinkedIn, YouTube, Instagram, and Facebook. And so from that mindset of loss and threat and the unknown. That mindset is the fear based instead of the like, what if this unlocks everything? how? So then how did you then learn to guide people from fear and the loss into possibly an opportunity and embracing this beautiful thing that's been hoisted upon that many other people worked on for over a year without their knowledge?

Shelley McIntyre 28:32

Yeah, I think this, this kind of comes back to values, right? If, because if we're feeling so fearful, it might be like trying to. A leap from very dry sand, like we don't have the foundation that we need of self trust and self-belief. So if we can go back to values and the essence of who you know yourself to be when you are operating at your very best and build this foundation that feels stable, so that you know that you're safe, then you can afford to be curious. Because if you're feeling threatened or burned out, then you don't feel safe somewhere inside of you. And safety is a prerequisite for curiosity. So we need to build up those resources internally to build that safety, which allows us to layer on confidence and curiosity, and that allows us to explore the next thing.

Caroline 29:45

So how do you do that? How do we build it? How do you

Shelley McIntyre 29:49

Yeah.

Caroline 29:49

How do you build, right?

Shelley McIntyre 29:51

Yep.

Caroline 29:51

there's so many, it's every behavior is a reaction to an unmet emotional need.

Shelley McIntyre 29:59

Mm-hmm.

Caroline 30:00

so how in especially in a highly analytical, data-driven tech world or STEM world, which we came from. How do you unlock that human thing? That's not just performance data, it's the underpinnings of your wellbeing, your relationships.

Shelley McIntyre 30:24

I mean, in addition to values, I always take people through an essence exercise where I have them go out to other folks that they know well and ask them what am I like when I'm operating at my best? And they will tell these beautiful stories about that person and that shows us, that gives us some evidence, again, 'cause we're gonna be data driven about who you actually are at your most, you know. Joyful and productive and flowy, right? So we get some of that evidence. We do a values exercise. We might do some other assessments to sort of build this, the slurry that will become the foundation. But then another really important thing, and especially this comes for people in the corporate world, we need to look at the assumptions that we've been making about who's in control. What power have you been giving away for a really long time? Because thus the system has been designed this way for you to give your power away. It it operates because of that.

Caroline 31:35

Mm-hmm.

Shelley McIntyre 31:35

So if we can see that we've assigned. A parent role to our managers and our companies, and we keep expecting our parents to take care of us, then we're gonna be continually disappointed and resentful. So we need to look at all the bits of control we've given away, where our competency truly lies, and if we have the opportunity to exercise that competency like. I talk to a lot of people who are very good at budget spreadsheets, very good at them, and they hate them beyond measure. So believing there's like a, there's a misalignment to deal with.

Caroline 32:21

Yes. Yeah, you can. You can do something, you can do it really well. You can even get awards. You can be recognized for all of those things, and just because you do it well doesn't mean you have to continue to do it that that's your only thing that you do

Shelley McIntyre 32:38

Yeah, and there can be a great sense of emptiness and loss if you are, if you're mainly exercising your competence on things you don't like.

Caroline 32:50

Absolutely.

Shelley McIntyre 32:52

Yeah,

Caroline 32:52

if you used to kind of like it and now you don't anymore.

Shelley McIntyre 32:56

that's right. That's right. And then this is where people who come to me say things like, I used to really love the guitar and I read a lot of magazines about car repair, but I don't have time to repair cars.

Caroline 33:12

'cause

Shelley McIntyre 33:12

But all of these are, they're all signals. They're all little twinkles for us to pay attention to.

Caroline 33:19

And especially if you, let's say somebody's experiencing that right now and, and something just flashed of, oh, I did used to like this kind of thing. I love experimenting. What if you experimented and tried it for an afternoon? Or what if you tried it for an hour and then how do you feel after it did? Do you have more energy? Or not? Are

Shelley McIntyre 33:41

Yes.

Caroline 33:42

and can that propel you? Sometimes that's the thing too. People will come to me, some change their jobs. Some open a company, some just continue doing what they're doing, but then they may build in other outlets outside of what they're supposed to do and have fun things that they can do that then give them enough momentum to continue on with the thing that they decided they need to keep doing for X period of time, for y reason.

Shelley McIntyre 34:09

Yeah, I love that. And, and that kind of points to the idea of like, how much work does your work have to do? Are you making your job be your BFF? Does it have to be your everything and your sun and the moon and the stars, or can we take some pressure off of your job to deliver all of the positive emotions, all of your relationships, all your sense of meaning, your sense of purpose. Like can we relieve some duty from the work so that you can find what you love outside and your work can, we can have some separation, some boundaries are possible in that world.

Caroline 34:51

Yes. Who am I? I am not what I do? That was a question that I had, right? And so now part of what I am trying to do when somebody is ready and aware and willing and wanting to, to take themselves on the journey of them who've they've been their whole life, by the way, you know, but unlocking. But how can we make a vision for what you want your life to look like? and then how can your career fuel that life? What, and whatever that is, whatever your vacation, whether you're paid or unpaid. But how can you m make it design it for you? That you are ultimately in control of who's getting your time, effort, and energy, and how you're recovering your time, effort, and energy so that you feel you are fulfilled on your own first.

Shelley McIntyre 35:45

Yeah.

Caroline 35:45

Oxygen mask on you then help others. And that, did that ever seem counterintuitive to you? Like when I, when I was a, know, let's say 20 something no children, I'm like, well, duh, of course you'd put your oxygen mask on yourself first. Who would think of that? And then the, one of the first couple times that I flew with little people that I helped create. I was like, wait, what? What do you mean put it on me for like, I have to give everything, all of me to this person because I'm now this role that they're counting on and I forgot, or I consciously chose not to count on myself and give, until there was nothing left to give. And then I didn't even know who I was. Was that, did you ever have something?

Shelley McIntyre 36:34

Sure, because we're, I mean in, especially in the corporate world, we're all rewarded for that selflessness and like, boy, even the word selfless, like, oh, it requires the complete absence of myself.

Caroline 36:52

Yeah.

Shelley McIntyre 36:53

Okay. But I remember getting kudos from managers for like sending e work emails at 2:00 AM

Caroline 37:00

Yep.

Shelley McIntyre 37:00

Oh, I see your dedication really impressed.

Caroline 37:03

Yeah.

Shelley McIntyre 37:04

what? No, but of, but of course, years can slip by in that mode because we're rewarded for it. We're given all of this validation and we're also in the trenches with other people who are doing the same thing. So it's normalized.

Caroline 37:21

Yes. And so what were some of the triggers that, or experiences that you went through where you shifted from working for others to now?

Shelley McIntyre 37:33

Yeah,

Caroline 37:34

yourself? What, what, what was your story in that, that time?

Shelley McIntyre 37:37

well, I started being not very good at my job anymore. Like I wasn't, I wasn't as dedicated as I once was. I noticed that I didn't have the curiosity needed to really, to do a job well. Like I would get into a particular role and I would see my coworkers like reading strategy books at night and reading all the business books, and I didn't want to read any of that. I didn't, I didn't want to learn the stuff that I really needed to learn.

Caroline 38:13

Was it the same feeling as the theater day? So when, when they were going and asking why the people were in theater school. Like, oh, these people are slightly different than how I am

Shelley McIntyre 38:24

Yeah, I think, I think there was a little bit of that where, you know, these new people would come into the company and they had their fresh MBAs and they knew so much more than I did just about the business world and, and new trends and how to do analytical, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah. And, and, and I did start having the, oh, I'm not like them.

Caroline 38:50

yeah, I think they're also trying to prove themself a bit and you're more like, ah, I kind of, maybe you're no longer proving and now you're just embracing and becoming.

Shelley McIntyre 38:59

Yeah, that that could be. But I also saw that they loved it. They really loved what they were doing and they were really interested and curious. And it was, it was the curiosity part that I was queuing into more. Like I would get into a role and instead of like doing everything that I could to learn about how to do that role well, I would just panic.

Caroline 39:23

What that show up like what is, what is panic besides a word?

Shelley McIntyre 39:27

Yeah.

Caroline 39:27

it materialize for you?

Shelley McIntyre 39:29

Oh, a lot of complaining to friends and family about my job. a lot of just inner swirl like, oh God, I'm not doing this well. I'm going to be found out. There's a little imposter syndrome that comes up, but none of the actual, like none of the action that could have helped in those moments. I didn't want to. And that had to come back, like come down and realize like, oh, I'm not learning because I don't want to. And once that was lodged in my brain, I thought, I gotta go. I have to go. I don't know what I'm gonna do next, but it's time to go.

Caroline 40:11

And so did you choose to leave, and how long between that realization and leaving for you.

Shelley McIntyre 40:16

I, I took a sabbatical in before my last year and I started really getting out there and investigating areas that I thought were interesting and that kind of brought me back to like the world of immersive theater and who was doing cool stuff and what, what meaningful conversations were happening out in the world. And I met people in the death care community. Because I kept looking for people who are having the most meaningful conversations and it turns out that they're the people who work in death care.

Caroline 40:54

Interesting.

Shelley McIntyre 40:55

Yeah. So I met all these cool people and I gave six months notice at my job because I was a principal at the company. It was gonna take a lot of unwinding to have me leave and, and I thought, okay, well I'm gonna explore this world of grief. I'm gonna maybe explore immersive theater and I'll, but I'm gonna take some time off. Maybe I'll get another job. I didn't really have a clear plan. And then my last day was at the start of the COVID lockdown.

Caroline 41:32

I wanna get to that.

Shelley McIntyre 41:33

Yeah.

Caroline 41:34

but also I wanna get to this like What does it mean? I took a sabbatical like were you working at a college? Professors get to take a sabbatical where they just, after working a long time and then they get to go do some fun thing, like does take a sabbatical mean you said something and somebody paid you to go explore and do stuff on your own or take a sabbatical like I invested and screw the money. I'm just gonna do me, me understand a little more and what that.

Shelley McIntyre 41:58

Yeah. So some companies now, after a certain number of years of service, will give you like four weeks off

Caroline 42:04

Oh,

Shelley McIntyre 42:04

and they call it a sabbatical.

Caroline 42:06

And so how long was your sabbatical?

Shelley McIntyre 42:08

Hmm. Mine was a month I think. Yeah.

Caroline 42:11

Okay. That's, I feel like, is that enough? But hey, it's a, it's a, it's a cracking, cracking open. All right. That's cool. And that's in addition to, because you had reached some level that was in addition to regular vacation, you got to have this extra fun perk as a Thank you so much. Add a

Shelley McIntyre 42:27

Yeah, it, it's such an incredible benefit that, I mean, yeah, my husband's company does that too. Every five years, you get a month off.

Caroline 42:37

Oh, that's cool. That's so

Shelley McIntyre 42:39

So I traveled all over the place and went and saw tons of theatrical performances and it was, it was great. I did a lot of traveling in my sabbatical.

Caroline 42:51

What are some of your favorite, like if you had to have your top three performances, theatrical performances, that if they were playing. Anywhere within a four hour radius, you'd be like, I have to go see this again.

Shelley McIntyre 43:06

And it's gonna be ones that no one has ever heard of and will never be staged again. But I'm gonna say them anyway.

Caroline 43:10

Okay.

Shelley McIntyre 43:11

I flew to London to go see. So do you remember the movie Casino Royale, the James Bond movie?

Caroline 43:18

Yeah, yeah. Yeah.

Shelley McIntyre 43:19

There was an immersive theater production of Casino Royale where they built a set in a airplane hangar outside of London with that replicated sets from the movie that you could walk through, like there was a boxing ring with people doing fights in the boxing ring. There were like casino tables where you could play poker and there was the MI six control room and you, you were all put on teams and you had to navigate around. And then at the end you kind of file into this other auditorium and they, where they screen the entire original movie, but it's supported by. Actors acting out some of the scenes in tandem with what's on the screen, like it was incredible. It was in an incredible production. I'll never forget it.

Caroline 44:16

That's so cool. That's so cool. I didn't know that kind of thing. Yeah. That I, to look up immersive theater, you know? Forget plant music. Let's go to immersive theater right now.

Shelley McIntyre 44:28

So that was the big, that was a big scale one. So I saw things of many different sizes. That was a huge scale. Like, you know, we would be taking the train from London out to this venue, and because we all had assigned costumes and insignias, it was like a black tie thing. We could see when everybody was getting on the train and which teams they were on, and we would start making connections on our way to the venue. It was just a beautifully.

Caroline 44:56

So

Shelley McIntyre 44:56

was a,

Caroline 44:57

Yeah.

Shelley McIntyre 44:58

a beautifully planned event. Do you know, Priya Parker and her Art of Gathering book?

Caroline 45:03

Yes. Oh my gosh. It says right around like, 'cause it's about to be Thanksgiving in the US. In a couple days and a few years ago, I was introduced to that and I was like, yes, I wanna set my intention and forget the food. There will be food. But I've been, that's been ruling not just my Thanksgiving, but other things

Shelley McIntyre 45:22

Yeah.

Caroline 45:24

Let me enjoy these people here and be

Shelley McIntyre 45:27

and I think it's something that, um, a lot of theater producers do very well. They follow a lot of the guidance from the art of gathering, helping people feel really welcomed and a sense cultivating a sense of belonging and curiosity, like they do it all.

Caroline 45:44

Yeah.

Shelley McIntyre 45:44

So the Casino Royale is the big scale production. I went to Los Angeles for a small scale production where I was the only audience member.

Caroline 45:56

Oh,

Shelley McIntyre 45:56

And it was this kind of show in a house where I was working, not working. I was participating with the creator of the show who did a scent based storytelling performance where it was. It was incredible. Like we would tell a story together and it would be accompanied by particular scents and at the end, like I had created a custom scent profile

Caroline 46:33

Wow.

Shelley McIntyre 46:34

then they made a candle out of it and sent it to me, and I had that for years. Yeah,

Caroline 46:41

cool. I mean, that,

Shelley McIntyre 46:43

there.

Caroline 46:43

of an element of storytelling, right? So it's like, what did you see? How did it feel? What did you smell like? And so now if you're in something like that and you're in the story as it's being created and then they give you a souvenir for like what? How power, wow. I'm just, I'm also kind of feeling like, who else used to work at Real Networks and what do they do now because.

Shelley McIntyre 47:05

I will tell you honestly, I.

Caroline 47:08

awesome.

Shelley McIntyre 47:09

Like two weeks ago, I facilitated an evening for The Women of Real Networks. We are still connected. 25 years later, there were 20 of us in the room. And you know, we did some, you know, we worked through some exercises about planning our third acts, but these, we call it, in Seattle, we call it the Real Mafia because. The people from that company have gone on to the most fascinating, incredible careers and lives.

Caroline 47:46

have a data set of two and I'm like,

Shelley McIntyre 47:50

I can connect you with five other people who'd give you amazing interviews.

Caroline 47:54

I would just love it just from my sheer fascination with people, their lives, their stories, and all the amazing things that I never even knew could be thought about that. Not only could you think about some, but some people have done in focused parts of their lives on it.

Shelley McIntyre 48:11

Yeah.

Caroline 48:13

Okay. Okay. Thank you for, for sharing a bit about those kinds of things and, and mental note, immersive theater. Look into that. Okay, so now you're, it's COVID you've decided you're leaving to, to go out on this bold journey of and, and did you like full force be like, I'm gonna be an entrepreneur, build my own thing?

Shelley McIntyre 48:37

No way.

Caroline 48:38

I just can't do this anymore

Shelley McIntyre 48:41

Yeah.

Caroline 48:42

do something else and I'm gonna figure it out as I go? What was

Shelley McIntyre 48:45

Yeah, I was ready for a little break, so my plan had been take a break and do a bunch of traveling and see some more shows, and then maybe look around and see if there's a job that I might like, and then everything grinded to a halt, of course, as we all know. And so I, I thought like, well, I guess I'm learning how to make yogurt and, cleaning all the, all the filters in the appliances in my house. And I guess I'm sewing face masks. I sewed, remember before we had like the N95?

Caroline 49:24

yes. And

Shelley McIntyre 49:25

I sewed like,

Caroline 49:26

I had. Marie Kondo was around that phase too, right? Or was she The year before? But I started folding my stuff vertically.

Shelley McIntyre 49:32

oh, nice.

Caroline 49:33

already knew how to make yogurt. My husband's from India originally, so we went through that phase, but, and sewing the masks. I wanted masks, and I supported other people who sewed them. That was it.

Shelley McIntyre 49:46

Yeah, I sewed hundreds of those masks for frontline workers.

Caroline 49:49

Had you sewed before?

Shelley McIntyre 49:51

Yeah, I'd sewed, I'd sewn a little bit, but boy, I sure got good at some of that

Caroline 49:55

yeah.

Shelley McIntyre 49:56

in that time.

Caroline 49:57

who knows? Okay. So interesting. And then, and then what happened?

Shelley McIntyre 50:03

Well, because I had the time and I couldn't go anywhere. I, the people that I had met, the year before in the death care community, they were like, Hey, Shelley, there is this, there's this grief recovery program that you can get trained in pretty quickly, and I think you should do it. And I was like. Okay, so I took, a few online training courses in this thing called the Grief Recovery Method, which helps people navigate through loss in a kind of, in a pretty set program where you work through particular exercises and it helps you kind of release some of the feelings of loss that might be sticking and I did a couple of training programs there, got involved in that community and then started working with clients through COVID on grief recovery. And that was great.

Caroline 51:04

all focused on losing some sort of person or was their grief different flavors? Career

Shelley McIntyre 51:11

It was mostly people. Some people worked through divorces, and then, you know. Because it was like, it was named Grief Recovery, most people associated with, with a loss of a person. So that's mostly what I did. But after a while, people were like, okay, listen, I've worked with you for a few months. I feel better and now I'm ready to take on some bigger transitions in my life. And I said. Please hold. I don't know how to do that yet. And then I decided to go to coaching school for a year because I thought, all right, I don't wanna, I don't wanna go back to school for five years to become a therapist. That doesn't feel like it's the right move for me right now, but I knew, I knew a few coaches who were brilliant and amazing and I thought, I wanna do this right. I don't wanna go to like a fly by night school. So I found a coaching school that was a year long and, and again, it was like the theater vibe where I found my new tribe.

Caroline 52:19

Yeah.

Shelley McIntyre 52:20

we got to know each other deeply and quickly and we are building something together. And I thought like, oh, this feels like, I don't know if I wanna be a full-time coach forever at the end of this, but I love this.

Caroline 52:32

Yeah. Yeah. Hmm. And so then how has that grown after you had your, you've had your grief training, community supporting that. Now you have this coaching foundation and now Dun.

Shelley McIntyre 52:51

Yeah, and what I, I think I noticed, well, first of all, there was, grief was such a great way to start because it's part of every transition. Right. We lose something in every transition that we go to, even if it's a good, even if it's a good one, right?

Caroline 53:09

Yep.

Shelley McIntyre 53:10

So, I just started paying attention to who was coming to me for help and it turns out it was a lot of people in midlife, lot of Gen Xers who were coming and saying, I've turned 50 and I don't care anymore, and I've forgotten what I like

Caroline 53:27

Yeah. Yeah,

Shelley McIntyre 53:30

Yeah, and I, you know, I, I already knew that I wasn't really down with being an executive coach because I just saw how broken all of the corporate systems were, and like, I couldn't, I couldn't get behind it. So I thought, well, I'm just gonna double down and we're gonna get people outta there.

Caroline 53:51

Hmm. And so, yeah. What's been some of your favorite experiences, most memorable ones, of how you've helped people overcome or become?

Shelley McIntyre 54:06

Yeah. And you know, like you, not every, like, not all of my clients go out and start companies. Some people stay where they are and have a completely different attitude about what the company has to do for them and they find their kicks outside. I do have clients who have switched industries. I have one client who came to me without knowing what she was gonna do, and she ended up writing a book during our year together, which was incredible experience. Another guy. Was kind of looking for jobs when he came to me and now he's fundraising for his startup. So I get to learn so much alongside them, and that's one of my favorite things. Like I didn't know that I was gonna learn so much about ballroom dancing and large language models in AI, and you know, how particular companies work. It's so cool to learn all of this stuff alongside my clients too.

Caroline 55:08

Absolutely. I absolutely, I love that. I love that as well. And how have you been feeling since doing this work on your own and helping other people like describe Shelley who was starting to not be curious anymore? What did that feel like versus Shelley? The amazing, awesome. Life, grief, everything. Gen X, burn the map. get us a new map. Coach. Yeah.

Shelley McIntyre 55:39

I will tell. I will tell you by way of describing my wardrobe.

Caroline 55:44

Okay.

Shelley McIntyre 55:45

So back in the consulting days, I had a lot of severe black outfits. I spent a ton of money on clothes. I wanted to look intimidating. I had intimidating haircuts, and I was basically armored all of the time. I remember I worked at that company for seven years before ever wearing jeans. Yeah. So that was, that was the armored way that I presented myself, and it worked for a really long time. It really worked. And now like. I can't wear black. That is far too harsh. I can't have anything with a collar up to here that's not welcoming.

Caroline 56:38

Yeah.

Shelley McIntyre 56:39

Like, can we, can we like optimize for connection with other people? So everything is a lot softer. I'm still myself. I mean, I can still go out and be hard charging if I need to, but I don't really need to

Caroline 56:55

Yeah.

Shelley McIntyre 56:55

that feels nice.

Caroline 56:57

Hmm. Joyful has the joy come back? Like I feel like I put my joy on a shelf for a while I just kind of occasionally would dust it, but I never really. Opened it. Like

Shelley McIntyre 57:11

Yeah,

Caroline 57:11

back in the day that got toys and they just kept them in the box. Those kids thinking they're gonna be worth something. yeah. But yeah.

Shelley McIntyre 57:20

I had a colleague say to me, once I've dec I've decided that joy is for other people.

Caroline 57:27

Oh,

Shelley McIntyre 57:28

It just broke my heart. Yeah.

Caroline 57:34

oh, oh.

Shelley McIntyre 57:36

Yeah. Yeah, there's a lot I do now that is joyful in my life. I love being in conversations with clients. I love witnessing their transformations. It's like. It's like a drug. It feels really great. And just being able to witness somebody learning so much about themselves and having these moments where they're like, oh, I don't have to do that anymore. I don't have to do that anymore,

Caroline 58:02

Yeah.

Shelley McIntyre 58:02

so great.

Caroline 58:03

Hmm.

Shelley McIntyre 58:04

And, you know, I, I love this activity that I do called Dance Church, which is

Caroline 58:12

Do tell.

Shelley McIntyre 58:12

A fitness class run by a professional dancer.

Caroline 58:15

Okay. Was the church part of it like? It's

Shelley McIntyre 58:19

It, it started on Sunday mornings. That's all bunch of dancers wanted to work out together. Yeah.

Caroline 58:28

Oh, that's fun. And you have a podcast now too. Tell,

Shelley McIntyre 58:32

I have a podcast.

Caroline 58:32

your podcast. Yeah,

Shelley McIntyre 58:34

Yep. Yeah, called Burn the Map and, and I really love just, I mean, it's eight minutes long and I dive into one singular topic and it's usually around like identity and the shift of identity from who you thought you had to be to who you can be in the future and always were really.

Caroline 58:55

I love it. I love it. Are you gonna keep it in that format or are you ever gonna have guests and their

Shelley McIntyre 59:01

Oh yeah, I'll play around with it. I'm thinking about switching it up a little in the new year,

Caroline 59:05

Yeah.

Shelley McIntyre 59:06

right now it's just me talking. Yeah.

Caroline 59:08

Yeah. Well, that's, I, I listened to a couple of those as well. Highly recommend, that that link will be in the, in the show notes as well. So,

Shelley McIntyre 59:15

Thank you.

Caroline 59:16

How do people find you?

Shelley McIntyre 59:19

They can find the podcast wherever there are podcasts at with, and it's called Burn the Map, and my website is burn the map coaching.com.

Caroline 59:28

And authentic success is something that I try to help people unlock, and that's whatever it means to you no longer somebody else's definition of success. How do you define authentic success in this moment?

Shelley McIntyre 59:43

I define it as fulfilling what aligns best to your values and your essence and no longer following a map that somebody else drew for you.

Caroline 59:58

Hmm. beautiful. Thank you Shelley, so much. I could talk to you for hours and hours and hours and days and months and years. Thank you for this. I really appreciate you sharing your wisdom, your story, your strength, the beauty of the things and the lives that you serve now. Thank you so very much.

Shelley McIntyre 1:00:19

Thanks for having me. I really appreciate it.

1:00:21

Shelley, thank you for bringing clarity, warmth, and depth into this conversation. Your story helps us understand the truth inside midlife, reinvention, the grief, the values work, the longing for belonging, and the possibility that returns when we choose alignment over performance. Your presence and your wisdom offer a grounded path for anyone sensing that their old map no longer fits. I am grateful for the work you're doing and the voice you bring to this space.

Tara 1:00:51

Thanks for listening to Your Next Success with Dr. Caroline Sangal. Remember, authentic success is yours to define and includes aligning your career to support the life you want.