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if you've ever hit that moment where you're thinking, I did everything I was supposed to do, so why is this happening? Stay tuned for today's part two of the conversation with Dr. Jesse and Omar, and if you haven't heard part one yet, please pause this. Go back one episode and start there. This is the Your Next Success podcast, and I'm your host, Dr. Caroline Sangal I'm a life first career coach and strategist on a mission to normalize questioning your career because I believe each of us is made on purpose for a purpose only we can fulfill. The longer we live out of alignment with who we are, what we do best, and why we are here, the more we miss out. And the more the world misses out on what only we can give. The Your Next Success Podcast is where we explore how to build a career that truly fuels your life. We talk about self-discovery, smart job, search strategies, professional growth, and you'll hear stories from people who have navigated big career transitions themselves, so you can create a life, first career and become your own version of authentic success. Welcome back to my conversation with Dr. Jesse and Omar, founders of A Souls Quest. They co-host the ASQ podcast and guide people through defining transitions with psychospiritual insight, practical tools, and grounded conversation. This is part two of our conversation. In part one, we talked about the early chapters, what shaped them before they even knew each other. Now we're picking up right where we left off, the Boys and Girls Club, how they crossed paths and how their bond became a safe place, especially during seasons where life felt uncertain. You'll hear about what rejection does to confidence. What a toxic workplace can do to your body and your nervous system, and how a path you didn't choose can become the one that finally brings you back to yourself. Let's jump back in.

Caroline Sangal: 2:09

All right. Okay, so the other day to the first time of you guys at the Boys and Girls Club, and I think Jesse, you were working there and Omar, you were working there. And then we kind of like skipped fast forward on your journey, Omar, to like, then you went to Comcast and then you came back to Boys and Girls Club. But can we pick up Jesse with you at the Boys and Girls Club? How did you join that thing? How did you guys meet? Just kind of curious and,

Dr. Jesse and Omar: 2:36

You're gonna laugh your ass off when I tell you that story.

Caroline Sangal: 2:39

Oh, I'm loving it. And then how did that alter your trajectory? Because like on one hand you're thinking you're free, And then somehow in between then and now you went and got several degrees.

Dr. Jesse and Omar: 2:52

Yeah. I can tell you about that too. Just let me know when you need me to stop and skip. Well, I'll tell you everything.

Caroline Sangal: 2:57

Well, thank you.

Dr. Jesse and Omar: 2:58

Shared some of this stuff, but you really got it outta me this time. I was like, oh man, she's got me. I wore the waterproof today though. I'm good.

Caroline Sangal: 3:04

Okay, so let's get back into peeling these layers and figuring it out. Jesse, we were kind of to a point where you had started working at the Boys and Girls Club, and then you said something like, and that's where you met Omar. But like, what is that story? Tell me a little bit about that.

Dr. Jesse and Omar: 3:24

Okay, so it's 2001. And at this point I think I mentioned that I was legally um, separated I was living in the house with the ex-husband and able to be with my kids and sort of had my own space and did my own thing'cause he was hardly ever there. So it was kind of nice and I thought, I wanna be with the kids. I'm sending them to school and they're going to the Boys and Girls Club. I wonder if I could get a job there. So I applied and I got a part-time job there as a membership clerk. And I was happy because it was like, I was there for like an hour right before the kids would arrive, and then all the kids would arrive and I'd be there for a few hours and my kids were there and then we'd leave together. It was like perfect. It

Caroline Sangal: 4:06

That seems amazing.

Dr. Jesse and Omar: 4:07

It was awesome and I got to spend time with my kids and it was great. And, fast forward a little bit, I made some friends there and whatever, and Omar was the teen director. And I didn't talk to him very much, but the first couple of days,'cause he wasn't there the first couple days, he had sprained his ankle or something, I'm not really sure. He finally came back to work and they were doing this thing where they were gonna introduce, because they were starting the new year and I was gonna be introduced or something like that. So we're out there and I noticed Omar's off to the side, hanging out. They had like this, um, like a trailer and that's where the teens would hang out. And I saw him off to the side, but never thought anything of it. Didn't think anything of him at all. I just, I wondered where he was from because he was dark, he had a head full of hair. It's all gone now.

Caroline Sangal: 4:56

That's true love. That's in in hair and no hair, not in sickness and in health.

Dr. Jesse and Omar: 5:01

That is right. Yes it is. So, um, you know, he really didn't talk to me very much because he was very much involved with the kids, and he was very fun and engaging with the kids. And he would do these, like, um, these battles, spade battles, and all the kids, he taught all the kids how to play spades. And so we were all playing spades and stuff. It was insane, and it was so much fun. And so one day, I wondered where he was from, still nothing going on between us and he walked past me and you know how when somebody walks past you, the smell will come off of them, their cologne their you know.

Caroline Sangal: 5:37

Well, and he worked at the Gap, so I bet he smelled real good.

Dr. Jesse and Omar: 5:41

No. You're gonna laugh about this. So he walks by me and I'm like, damn, I know where he's from now in my mind, all I said is he's Indian. He smelled like curry. That is so like, I hope nobody's offended by that's, that is really bad. It's really bad. But I was literally like, he's Indian, he's got a full head of hair. It's not like he's Dominican and a lot of Dominicans have that ethnic coarse hair, not him. It was soft, curly, pretty hair. I was like, I put it together. He's Indian, he smells like curry. It's very clear to me this is it. Talk about judging a book by its cover. Right? But anyway, did not think anything of it. Fast forward, I am told that I'm gonna be connecting with him because I'm going to have to accompany him, as another team member for trips to like bush gardens and all these big trips, like to the beach and these places. And I was gonna be partnering with him because he had a big group of teens and, other kids. I was like, okay, no problem. Again, we don't have any feelings between us at all. We're just like, whatever. So we, I start to connect with him talking to him and getting involved with the teen group and whatever. And as I start talking to him, I start to realize,'cause I've always been attracted to like smart people in general. So if a guy can keep my attention, then I'm like, oh, okay, that's cool. He's a cool guy and I can either be really good friends with that guy or I can be, you know, have feelings for them. And he just held a conversation, but the stuff that he talked about was different than the normal stuff, he was talking about Joseph Campbell, different types of music. He knew all kinds of music like Bob Marley, just Nika Costa, all these different artists and I was fascinated by that. I was like, this guy's freaking smart. He's talking about all kinds of stuff that I don't know about, and I'm like, taken to another level'cause the spiritual stuff really got me because I was like, I've never really talked to anybody about spirituality and that I was always the religious Christian, whatever. So this was like a new world. And I had known about it because I read a couple books about Buddhism and things like that, but I was crazy for reading those books. And I shouldn't be, I'm a Christian, I shouldn't be reading these books. And so I was really fascinated by that. And so I started to get, I was catching feelings for him, and I'm like, this guy is six years younger than I am, almost six years younger than I am. I'm like, there's no way I can't, like he's 23 and I'm 28. It's just not right, right? I stayed away from him, but the moment I started realizing that I was having feelings for him, I got rude. So, one day I walked out to this mobile,

Caroline Sangal: 8:24

like on the playground, right? That's what little kids do. I'm gonna be so mean to you. I'm not playing tag with you. Forget it. You're stupid.

Dr. Jesse and Omar: 8:33

That's exactly what happened. It was so immature. I go over there and here I am this 28-year-old woman to this 23-year-old guy. And he is like, are you okay? And I'm like, actually, I don't really wanna have any conversation with you because I'm starting to like you and I'm not, I don't want that. And I just took off and I left and I didn't talk to him and not even a week later I'm sitting at the membership desk, not talking to him, not going around him or anything'cause I don't wanna have feelings because I have shit going on in my life, right? And he comes up to me, he goes, Hey, I'm going to Key West in a week, do you wanna come along? And I'm like, what the hell? And yes. I mean, I went, before that we had gone, it wasn't a week away, he had invited me on that trip. But before that, we had gone and we met at this park, and it was like the first time we kissed and whatever, and it was just like, whatever. So we just took off from there. We were inseparable from that moment on.

Caroline Sangal: 9:25

Pause one second. Of course she just told the right version, but what did you think happened?

Dr. Jesse and Omar: 9:30

Typically, she doesn't say the story when she just got upset and just walked away then I'm like, what's going on? What happened? What did I do? So she did say the right version of it, but in my mind, before I met her, I dated here and there, but I was never committed. I had a big bad breakup when I left New York, and, so I was always hesitant. I was kind of non-committal with everybody.

Caroline Sangal: 9:51

You started feeling real feelings and then you had to leave and you didn't want that pain again, or what was the deal?

Dr. Jesse and Omar: 9:58

It is just complete avoidance. You don't wanna go through the heartache. If someone has ever been to a heartache and it's been brokenhearted. It's an identity crisis. So it was hard I dated here and there, but I never really committed to anyone. And I was upfront, I said, I don't really want a relationship and when I met her, it was kind of like counterintuitive, right? Because it's like, she's got kids. I don't have any responsibilities. I don't have kids all I wanna do is just kind of go in my, I was in my spiritual exploration stage at that time while I was working. So it wasn't really something that was in my mind I thought she was very attractive and I was like, wow. she has kids and I'm just a kid, I'm just fresh outta college. And then, I have all these ideas about who I am and what I need to do, or trying to find out who I am. But there's something that happens that's, hard to describe, because when you know, you just know. Some people, I think in our day and age, that's so of like left field. Like no one makes sense of that. But sometimes when you just know, you just know and so when we started really talking and we really bonded and I understood where she was coming from, she was completely upfront about everything in her life. She was very upfront about it. I like kids. I enjoy kids and they were older too, so they weren't babies. I'm not a big fan of babies.'Cause babies are, they're too much. They're way too,

Caroline Sangal: 11:25

One of my friends used to say, I wanna have kids when they're over five. And I was like, okay.

Dr. Jesse and Omar: 11:30

That is the best. Actually, our oldest son tell us the same thing. He just looks at me and he goes, yo, you did it right. You did it absolutely right. But that's what happened. I wish I had like a, like this big boom moment or reality, but it just, we just started bonding and we understood and we accepted each other for our situations, our circumstances, the things that we get went through. There was no judgment in either direction and it was just that. I wish I could say something more, but that's really what happened.

Caroline Sangal: 12:00

Now, she mentioned that she noticed something different about conversations with you. Did you notice anything different about conversations with her or what, like aside from she's beautiful and all this and that, and it kind of just happened, but did you feel comfortable? Could you talk to her about stuff you wouldn't talk to other people about? what was special about that?

Dr. Jesse and Omar: 12:22

so I don't open, I'm very reserved. A lot of people think that I'm an extrovert and I'm not. I'm actually an introvert. I like spending time alone and quiet. So I never really, until I met her, I never opened myself up. I was always very guarded.

Caroline Sangal: 12:40

Even with your past relationship?

Dr. Jesse and Omar: 12:42

Yeah, never, never. I have friends in college I would just disappear. And they were like, where do you go? And I'm like, well, doesn't matter to you, they used to say, you just go on sabbaticals and you just go and you don't tell anybody. And I'm like, why should I? I used to go on vacations by myself. I used to do a lot of things alone. And I really enjoyed that quiet time because growing up, I never felt that I was understood. And I was always the oddball out. I was weird. I actually, we were talking to my mom, we just went on vacation with my mom and she was like, when you were younger you didn't really talk and people thought that there was something wrong with you but I tell him no. He knows exactly, he just doesn't like talking. But when I met her it was just easy to be myself. And for someone that has always been considered another, that freedom just to be me, without being judged, that was a big catalyst of us maintaining together. And to this day, we tell each other everything, the good, the bad, the ugly. We have our things like everybody else, but at the end of it all is, I could be myself around her, where a lot of the times I have to safeguard myself when I'm around people. Just because the judgment, the comments and things of that nature. But with her, I'm me, she sees me picking up my boogers sometimes, or my hands out my pants while watching tv. You know, the things that we do, it's, he's never said that on camera.

Caroline Sangal: 14:07

That's real married life though.

Dr. Jesse and Omar: 14:09

All I can do not saying anything. is just look at him sometimes and I laugh'cause I'm just like, when I married. You know, every husband that knows this look right. It's this look that's almost I love you, but I pity you all at the same time. He is like, it's like I bless your heart.

Caroline Sangal: 14:26

You meet, you go to this Key West Trip and all that, and now the Key West trip, was that with the Boys and Girls Club or was that just a fun like little vacay?

Dr. Jesse and Omar: 14:35

It was just us. Yeah. I liked just going on adventures like that. And, we met and I was gonna do it anyways, but I was like, you know,

Caroline Sangal: 14:44

I guess I'll ask her too. And then sometime along the way y'all got married?

Dr. Jesse and Omar: 14:50

Oh, it took a while. Basically what happened was, I was getting to the point where I needed to move out of ex-husband's house. I didn't want to be there, especially now I'm dating Omar, and I'm like, that, it just didn't feel right. I knew I was gonna have to move out and my options were really limited in terms of work in our local area. And so I started sort of looking at the palm beaches, Miami, because there were jobs that were yeah. Well, that I was making more money. I got offered a position in West Palm Beach and so I ended up moving to West Palm Beach and he stayed in the, on the Treasure Coast, which is where we live.

Caroline Sangal: 15:30

And what was the job that you took?

Dr. Jesse and Omar: 15:32

A staffing manager, a nurse staffing manager position. It was actually really cool because it was a lot of interacting with people and doing the thing that Omar says I'm so good at, which is just making relationships with people and getting people to do things. And they do it because they just like me, you know?

Caroline Sangal: 15:51

I get it.

Dr. Jesse and Omar: 15:52

I didn't think I had that knack, but now that I'm reflect, now that I'm bringing this up, I'm like, oh wait, now I, it's connecting. I lived in West Palm Beach and so I would commute up here, to, I saw my kids a lot, but I, when I came up here to see my kids, I would also see Omar. So we weren't seeing each other every day. And in fact, those little three day sabbaticals that he's talking about, he would disappear. And I wanna know where he was. He wasn't answering his phone. He was very, whatever. And I was very confused'cause I'm like, does he wanna be in a relationship? What's going on? But I was really trying to understand where he was coming from. So the fact that he was open with me about space that he was in and it was difficult for him to explain it. I just kind of kept my distance to just in case he was gonna be like, I don't wanna be with you anymore.

Caroline Sangal: 16:40

I got you. and plus coming out of the relationship with a few kids and all of that, and then seeing how that didn't really work out and, and now being extra cautious because you don't want to move into something too quickly.

Dr. Jesse and Omar: 16:53

and I always thought, even if we don't pan out in a relationship, I thought we could probably be friends'cause we like see a lot of the thing. I don't know. We saw a lot of the same things. Obviously he felt comfortable, I felt comfortable. We talked about a lot of stuff and he accepted me for what I was and who I was at that time, so it was really a beautiful relationship. So I always thought we could probably like, maintain this friendship, but we kept going, we kept going at it, and I was more concerned about doing the right thing for my kids too. So I was a little preoccupied, we would meet up and then sometimes he would call me and be like, I miss you, I wanna come see you. And so I, those were those moments where I'm like, oh, okay. I guess we're okay. You know? That's cool. I didn't bring my kids around, Omar, so it's really funny because my kids knew Mr. Omar from the Boys and Girls Club, but I always made a promise to myself that I would not bring men around my children, period. Unless they're gonna stay committed, they're gonna be with me. I had to wait. So for a full year, I ended up in Miami as a staffing manager, nurse staffing manager, and Omar ended up coming with me down to Miami. So we lived together, but I would not bring my kids down there to stay with me. I would come all the way up to pick them up and then stay at my mom's and we would stay there. So for a full year, that was my life, and that's what we were doing and Omar was trying to navigate his situation and whatever.

Caroline Sangal: 18:22

And Omar, what were you doing in Miami work-wise then? Was that the Comcast thing or what was that?

Dr. Jesse and Omar: 18:26

So that's interesting. So now actually, I moved down to Miami as she moved first, but I, I moved down to Miami because we were at a concert once, charade and,

Caroline Sangal: 18:38

Nice.

Dr. Jesse and Omar: 18:39

Were passing out some flyers. And I saw this flyer and right away it just called to me like, whoa, what is this? That time in my life, like after college, because I was lost as a person, I was fortunate enough that I saved some money. So I was able to look at things. I was lost, really confused about who I was, what's my purpose in life primarily and so I was lost. So I saw this flyer and it was for, I never heard of it before, it was the Kabbalah Center, right? And I don't know, he called me. So I went to the open house. Um, I signed up for a class then I started taking classes there, and I just started meeting people. And one of the teachers really took to me, and we kinda bonded. so eventually I moved down. Um, I found a job with a company doing sales, for a little bit. And I wasn't really into sales. I left the Boys and Girls Club. It was just, I needed to find myself. I needed to go and see who am I, what am I doing on this earth? Like I know that, um, if I pick something, if I had a job or something, I'll be fine. I know how to do it, but that wasn't enough for me. I don't know why. because I am an immigrant and it's like, you're supposed to come over here and just work and have a better life and all that stuff. But you can.

Caroline Sangal: 19:55

And you're also a human.

Dr. Jesse and Omar: 19:56

Yeah. And even to this day, it is like there's something more to life and I don't know what it is for me, that led me to depression. I was very depressed and concern as to what's my purpose? I've seen a lot of my friends very successful. Some of them are doctors, some of them are in human services and things of that nature. But I just didn't know what my place was.

Caroline Sangal: 20:16

What did it look like when you were, leading to depression? Did you know you were depressed and how did you show up in those times?

Dr. Jesse and Omar: 20:25

So my solace was working with the kids. That was it. That was, I felt like that was a purpose. But then also when I started, when I did it for about a year or so, there was still something that was calling that, it was, I did something more. So when I saw the center, I was like, yeah, let me go. I signed up, I was working in sales and then my teacher asked me, Hey, I'm doing this project, will you be willing to help? The project was starting a call center, for the cabal center down in Miami. I was like, sure, Abraham. No problem. So we started working together, started working there for just a little bit, and then I helped build the center, the call center. But even with that, I've learned a lot about a different culture. A different point of view, a different perception of what the, of what reality is. It was interesting because you could see the duality in people. There was some people that were very, very welcoming and very, very nice. And there's some people that weren't, but you learn that it's like in any demographic, in any group, you always are gonna have those things. and it's okay. I learned a lot. But still, it was that idea of purpose. At that point, I felt like I was finding my purpose, but there was always that dissolution, or still, where do I fit in? There's a song DMX has is like, and he goes, do I belong? Do I fit in, things on my mind? Where do I begin? You know? So those are the things that were really going on when I met her. And a part of me, and this kinda like leads into marrying a part of me, didn't wanna hurt her because I don't know where I was heading. I don't know exactly what I wanted and I just couldn't be prescribed what everybody else was doing. I don't know why. It was just, it seemed silly. It seemed like whatever, like I needed a purpose. And I feel bad sometimes because, for most people it is not a luxury to find purpose and I know that I was alone, so I didn't wanna bring anybody down if I was gonna go down. So it took us about four years, until she said what are we doing? So actually she put me on a corner one day, literally. And what are we doing? What are we doing? It's like,'cause I can't keep doing this. And, I was afraid.

Caroline Sangal: 22:38

Look at you speaking up for what you needed though, Jesse, yeah, right? Like you provided a safe enough space because prior to she wasn't telling people.

Dr. Jesse and Omar: 22:46

Yep. Right. No, exactly. It was really funny too, because we, um, you know, I was, at this point I'm like, I don't wanna go into I'm 30, what, 32 at this point? 32. I don't wanna go into my late thirties as having a boyfriend. I don't want that. I want to be a married woman. My kids know this person. They love him, he loves my kids, this is a really great thing and we get along for the most part. I know he's lost, I know that he is having a lot of internal struggle and a lot of tug of war going on in there. And I was, I think, very patient about trying to be there for him and support him through this, because I didn't feel lost, I was in the matrix, I was fine, i'm good. But it was just funny. We, I just went to him and I said, what are we doing? I don't want to, I wanna get married. I wanna be married to you. Yeah. And he's like, yeah, no. It's interesting to like, there because I had a so-called friend, like, um, tell her this, like, why are you with him? You know, and Oh yeah. And it's like, you know, you should just leave him and all this stuff. It's like, you know, it's not worth it. And when you go through those things and she told me, Hey, this is what he said and this is what I said. Okay, not a problem. But again, I'm thankful that she understood where I was and didn't wanna put her through stuff like that. I didn't wanna put my mother through things like that'cause your mom concerns herself and it's like she's seen all that you are capable of doing. And she's seen all that. And I remember I went to, my scout master Ken, and I told him, I don't know what I'm doing. And he's like, I understand him, Omar. He is like, you are a lot like me. He's like, you are gonna have a hard time finding your place because you're just hardheaded that you think differently. So it was a reassuring thing, but it was also one of the things that you just have to kinda like go through it. And then you have a guilt'cause you carry the guilt as a man you should be this and you should be that.

Caroline Sangal: 24:46

So it's like society's view of what success is and what it means to be a provider or somebody in a relationship, or somebody that could be a husband is one view. And then you're, I, I kind of feel like, were you lost or were you incubating? Like it takes some time to figure out before you can like go to your next,

Dr. Jesse and Omar: 25:07

Yeah. I call it composting now. In retrospect. But it was very challenging because it's, you have all these pressures from the outside, and you have all the comments and all the things and false friends come up. I remember, one of my teachers at the center, he said, Omar, it's like you have a lot of love on your heart, but you need to learn how to temper that. I was like, what are you talking about that we're supposed to love each other, right? And he sat me down. I remember Shimon, he told me, he's like, you need to learn how to temper that. He's like, this is gonna be your challenge in your life. You're very giving,

Caroline Sangal: 25:41

Do you think he meant by temper that?

Dr. Jesse and Omar: 25:44

He meant the fact that you need to look at the world for what the world is, rather than what I wanted to be. I grew up with a mother that was extremely a given person, right? And I saw her taken advantage of and things like that. I saw Ken and Betty being taken advantage of, but they were very open giving people with that agendas without anything they just gave and you need to learn. I needed to learn how to give, but also protect myself, from giving, because it's atypical how being a man and being like this, right? Because then you looked at as a, you have an agenda. Or like Jesse said, like Jesse's, like everybody's always said, well, is he gay? Or something like that, because he's just so cool and friendly and all this, right?

Caroline Sangal: 26:34

Nah, you just went through the GAP training program.

Dr. Jesse and Omar: 26:36

Actually, I used to train and I got trained. So you go figure man. Well, yeah, it's like finding, being you, it's challenging. It's hard. You want to do the things that you wanna do, but you don't know exactly what. And, sometimes the working became like, soul crushing, because I just didn't know what that purpose was like.

Caroline Sangal: 26:57

What did it feel like you're questioning and what else was happening?

Dr. Jesse and Omar: 27:01

Well, there were times that I went to work and there was no meaning in what I was doing. I was just processing things. I wasn't helping people, you just felt hollow and empty, and then you get up in the morning and it's the heaviness of it all. The crying sometimes I'm gonna be honest, just crying sometimes. Like, what am I doing here?

Caroline Sangal: 27:28

Were you angry? Like did it show up as anger too, or did you just like repress that and just like.

Dr. Jesse and Omar: 27:34

I don't think I was angry. It wasn't angry, it was just more asking, I remember doing this, I'm gonna tell you this one story, right? I remember she wasn't around. I was in Miami and she wasn't around. And I just cried the whole night and I prayed like, what is my purpose here? What do you have me here? if I'm a vessel, like use me, just guide me and everything.

Caroline Sangal: 28:00

And who were you asking at this point? Because you grew up Catholic like God, universe? Like what are you?

Dr. Jesse and Omar: 28:06

It's interesting that's a good question. That's a good rabbit hole actually.

Caroline Sangal: 28:10

I'm good at those.

Dr. Jesse and Omar: 28:12

Yes. That's a good rabbit hole. So, for instance, one of the things that I learned in Kabbalah is the fact that things of that as clear cut as people make it out to be, right. In Kabbalah, there is no God, it is called the esof. And the way that Kabbalah explained it is that light that manifests different ways and that manifestations are aspects of both nature, aspects that are within us. So for instance, I told her, I told you earlier that Shimon told me you have too much, too much Hasad in you. Hasad is the aspect that is the loving kindness mercy, right? And you need to balance that with rah, which is that idea of justice, right? So you, if you are too, too restrictive, right? You don't grow, you'll die. But if you're to wait to giving, there's nothing to replenish you. So you need to find balance between the two and a equilibrium better set. So these ideas that we think of what God is and all that stuff is kind of antiquate in my opinion, because of what I've learned. But the reality is we are a manifestation of it all. Right? We are a little piece of that. Like we are a little piece of the universe and the idea is to be able to balance the different energies that we have within us. To me, I always lean to the point of giving and caring almost to the point that I will give everything and stay with nothing. I needed to learn how to balance that. Having to go through that transition, took me years to learn even though I had the understanding logically it took me about four years ago to really understand the balance of receiving and giving. You don't judge people. You just have to be able to understand that the equilibrium in them is probably number one that probably don't understand it and number two is something that just for us to be aware of it. It took me a while, but this is the type of questions that I had when I was with her, and she allowed me the flexibility to explore that and share that with her. This is something that you don't have, who do you talk to about things like this,

Caroline Sangal: 30:21

I guess the person that loves you unconditionally accepts you. Now, Jesse, coming from the, you know, where you weren't necessarily feeling feelings, from men in your life before, right? Like your dad was harsh and this and that, and then you didn't necessarily get what you were needing from your first husband to now have this beautiful man who is, not in a creepy way, but I'm just saying like, for you, this beautiful man, beautiful soul who is being vulnerable, expressing emotions, feeling emotions. What was that like for you? Were you like, yes, this is what I've been waiting for? Or were you like, what were your thoughts?

Dr. Jesse and Omar: 31:01

I think the one thing that really stands out for me is that I felt pain for him because I knew that he was full of pain. For me, I knew who I was. I'm fine. I'm living, I'm doing what I'm supposed to be doing.

Caroline Sangal: 31:18

And did you really know?

Dr. Jesse and Omar: 31:19

I thought I knew.

Caroline Sangal: 31:20

Yeah,

Dr. Jesse and Omar: 31:21

Yeah.'cause I, you know, he's talking about learning this thing in his forties. I'm like waking up to, who the fuck am I in my fifties? I'll be 53 next month.

Caroline Sangal: 31:32

Yeah.

Dr. Jesse and Omar: 31:33

And that's crazy

Caroline Sangal: 31:35

No, it's not crazy. That's protective. That's that. It's just there's a time and you have to be safe enough to start exploring and start feeling those things.

Dr. Jesse and Omar: 31:44

And I think you're right on that because I think what happened is that I had to be strong when he was needing me to be there for him to support him and to encourage him to find whatever it is that he was looking for because there were a lot of moments where he was very down and out and not feeling good and very, I wouldn't say depressed, but definitely very down. We had a lot of great moments too. You know, but then when he was down, he was, he was down. But when he was happy, he's happy, you know? so I knew there was this person that was really needing to come out, and I wanted to be there for him because one, I loved him, and two, because I could feel his pain. Like I just knew that he was going through a lot inside, you know, and shared a lot with me, and he felt safe to share with me and I felt compassion for the things that he was going through. So, for me, it was easy to stay there, but there were moments that I was like. You're going. Like he says he's a giving person. He was a giving, he was giving. And I'm like, we don't have to give. So it was causing some friction between us because I'm like, we don't you, we can't give donations and do stuff. We need people to donate to us right now. So it, you know, we had our moments, but, I think that we've always maintained a solid relationship in terms of being able to communicate and we've really learned a lot about being able to communicate even up until just, you know, every day we're always evolving, we're always doing that. Yeah. So it's a beautiful relationship. And I always felt like I belonged here. I didn't feel uncomfortable. I didn't feel like, oh man, what the fuck did I just get into? Like, this guy's on a roller coaster, you know, it, it was more, there was times where I was like, Omar, you're like up and then you're down. But, more than anything, all I did was really support him and stay there as a person that he could trust and confide in and be with and cry with if he needed to. I remember the first time he cried, I was just like, I didn't, I mean, for,

Caroline Sangal: 33:50

You hadn't seen that, right?

Dr. Jesse and Omar: 33:52

And I was just like, oh my God, all I could do was just hold him. He was like a, like an infant crying and I felt empathy for him and I didn't know that was at that time because I didn't know the difference between compassion and empathy. But I felt his pain. I could feel myself feeling the same pain moments of my own life, you know? It was easy for me to be there for him and be understanding, you know.

Caroline Sangal: 34:16

Now. It does. But I'm still curious. Like, okay, so you start getting your voice of like, well, what are we doing? And then you guys somehow get married and then where does this desire to want to go to school? Okay. Like you've done the medical assistant thing. Right? But then how does this come up that you're like, you know what, I think I'm not just gonna get one degree, maybe not two. I think I feel like three. From not necessarily caring like in high school and all that to be like, I don't really care, but running is my freedom. Like what?

Dr. Jesse and Omar: 35:28

Yeah, i'm gonna give you the little setup, but then I'm just gonna pass it to her so that she could do that. Right. So in 2005, there was a hurricane here in Florida and we living, been in Miami and something happened to our parents and my mom's, and then it was like, you know what? I think that it's time for us to leave Miami and move up. And so we moved up and she had a job working as a bookkeeper. I was working at Comcast. So we got married and we were having the, you know, we had the money and we were working and everything was, everything was good. And then, and then she got laid off from work and, So, you know, the housing market, 2008 crisis in 2008, the office ended up closing. It was actually, that was going on and I could feel that things were getting kind of, it was like pressure cooker at my job. And, my boss, Jeff Grimaldi amazing, we're still friends. He was an amazing boss. Ended up, closing the office that I was in and we moved to the other office, a Vero Beach office. And it was the choice between myself and this other lady. And she was older. And it was either gonna be her getting laid off or me getting laid off. And they didn't wanna lay me off. In fact, they told me they were gonna lay her off. And I was like, what do you mean? And so they explained it to me and I'm like, if it's a choice between laying one of us off, lay me off because she needs the job and I can find something else. I'm 30 something. She's much older. She needs the insurance, who knows if she'll get hired. Her old people don't get hired at places. And here I am now at the same age as she was. And I got laid off I was getting, what do you call it? Unemployment and whatever. And Omar says to me, you know, Jesse, I think you should go ahead and just take the year off. You know, we're doing okay financially, just take a year off and explore and just kind of do things. You've been working since you were 14 because I worked in my whole life and he goes, you know, why don't you go to the college and maybe you can take the course? No, no, no, no. She wanted to take art classes first. I did art'cause I love to paint. I did, I started taking those art classes and I was really enjoying it. But he had recommended that I go to the college to find out if there's maybe a class that I can take. There are more art classes or something like that. I went to the local college with the intention of just getting information. I wasn't gonna sign up or do any of that. And the moment that I walked into this place, I was surrounded by students and people and whatnot and, advisors and whatever. And I met with my advisor and they start talking to me. And I'm just starting to like really become curious about, oh my gosh, like what would it be like for me to go to school and I could get a job and still go to school like could get like a degree, you know? And he had said that, he goes, you've never been to college. You always kind of wanted to go to college, check it out. When I left that day, I didn't come back with information, I came up with a full load of classes. I had my financial aid set up, I did everything. I called him on the phone, I said, and he is like, how did it go? And I'm like, I start classes in January, I'm taking 12 credits. And he is like, okay then. And that was it. I was starting my associate's degree and I thought that I wanted to be in, in accounting because I was really good at being. And then I thought about it and I was like, I really wanna be in an office all day long with numbers and receipts and paper and Excel spreadsheets? And, and I was like, ah, I don't know. And Omar had always talked about like, you know, he was always interacting with people and he had actually thought about going on to get you know, psychology. In his head and whatever. And so he was really able to talk to people. So I was like, gosh, I wonder if that's something that I might enjoy doing is maybe be getting into human services. So switched my degree. It's an associate's degree, so, but I went through the Psychology track so that I could go into my bachelor degree. And then I ended up doing my bachelor's degree in human services. And then from there, that is sort of where like the second part of my life starts because I talk about this when I do my trainings. I didn't know it then, but I know it now, I was very, very focused on becoming a faculty member. I wanted to be a professor so bad. I was like, I know that I would thrive in that I could give back. I would love to be in a classroom and learn from people and teach people and I wanna do it. These faculty members got it made. They make a hundred thousand dollars a year, they got 10 hours of office hours, then they go do whatever they want and they get to teach, oh, this is it for me. And I was very zoned in on that. So I went on and got my master's degree in, public administration, and that was the first door that closed on me because the minute that I graduated, I submitted my certification paperwork and a young lady from the HR department calls me and she goes, you know, Hey Jess. I got your certification paperwork, but I, we can't certify you. And I'm like, yeah, you can. I have a master's degree and I'm gonna be an adjunct instructor. Get my feet wet, get in there and get to teaching know, do this. And I was like, surely I'm gonna get this. I've been a dedicated employee. Why would you not certify me? She goes, no, you don't understand. We can't do it because you're an hourly employee. So if you do adjunct work, you're gonna be paid overtime and they won't do that. And I'm like, when did this change? There's a lot of people. She's like, yeah, it's actually a policy that just got put in place weeks ago. First door that closed. But I was persistent because I was zoned in on becoming a faculty.

Caroline Sangal: 40:52

Yeah.

Dr. Jesse and Omar: 40:52

So I ended up going on getting my doctorate. I approached Omar about it and I said, Hey, you know, what do you think about me doing this? You know, we could potentially start consulting, you know, do some organizational work. You're great at leadership, you're great with people. You got like vision and like, oh my God, and I could do stuff. You get the vision, I'll make things happen, I'll do stuff.'Cause that's kind of like our dynamic now.

Caroline Sangal: 41:16

Yeah,

Dr. Jesse and Omar: 41:17

And, I got my PhD and then more doors closed and I'm getting severely underpaid for the amount of work that I'm doing. I'm the assistant dean at the college and I'm getting paid peanuts and not being, I guess, I hate to say it this way'cause it sounded egotistical, but it's like I wasn't being highlighted for the work that I was doing. I was just kinda like, eh, whatever. You know.

Caroline Sangal: 41:42

Like taken for granted.

Dr. Jesse and Omar: 41:44

Yeah. Taken for granted. Yeah, that's a good way to put it. So, but I was still persistent. I was like, I'm gonna do it. And I was kept hitting wall after wall after wall, and then we went through a couple of things financially'cause at that point, I think we talked about where Omar ended up leaving, the organization where he was working in youth development. And when he left, all we survived on what I was getting paid and whatever savings we had, and we burned through that savings. So we were in a situation and I was looking for work outside of the college because I'm like, if they don't appreciate me, I'll find a job with somebody else, will pay me my worth. But I was devastated by that because what I wanted to do was be a faculty member And I'd given 15 years of service to this place, and I'm not gonna get this opportunity. In fact, I interviewed for a teaching position and the person called me the day that we were packing to go to Jamaica for my son's wedding. And he called me and he says, you know, Jess, turns out we're not gonna be hiring anybody and this and that and that whatever was like a lip service type thing. And he goes, by the way, What did you do your dissertation on? What was your, what was your dissertation about? I said it was about emotional intelligence, and he is like, yeah, don't, don't ever, don't talk about emotional intelligence. Don't, don't do that. I was like, okay. And he's like, yeah, in the business world we don't, we don't talk about that. And I'm like, okay, you just proved my point of having to write this dissertation.

Caroline Sangal: 43:16

Yeah.

Dr. Jesse and Omar: 43:16

Subject. Right? So it was just, I was coming home crying. I was also fetal position. Layers started to be peeling away at this point. But I was resistant. I was like, Nope, I'm staying in the matrix. I'm gonna,

Caroline Sangal: 43:30

Because I decided this thing, this is what I'm gonna do.

Dr. Jesse and Omar: 43:32

So focused that I could not. Couldn't. It was so bad, Caroline. It was so bad, Omar told me one day when we were sitting on the sofa, we had, downsized into another place and getting settled in, and I'm still at the college, still looking for work. A year and a half later, no jobs are opening up at one point I sat down with him and I start crying and I'm explaining to him that I just don't feel, I don't have my place in ASQ you know, with the soul's quest. I have a PhD in leadership. I just, don't have meaning, I don't have purpose. I wanna be a faculty member. And he's like, have you ever this being a good husband, you know, wanting to fix me? He says, Jesse, have you ever thought about maybe teaching in a different capacity? And I just got up and I was like, I don't even have support from my own husband. I am done, done with the whole freaking world. I'm done.

Caroline Sangal: 44:22

And you're genuinely just trying to give an option, like a different point of view. But you're not, you're so, so focused. And if it's not in the same line that you're saying, then it must be against you.

Dr. Jesse and Omar: 44:36

It is against me and so I was like, even my husband is against me. I was devastated. It didn't hit me until many months later. I finally did get another job, and that ended up being a horrible job. Incredibly toxic, very bad situation. It was almost like I knew that the universe didn't want me at the college, but the universe didn't tell me to go to another job. The universe wanted me to come to ASQ

Caroline Sangal: 45:04

ah.

Dr. Jesse and Omar: 45:05

So I didn't know that. I tell people this, and it makes me emotional, when Omar came up with the soul's quest, I thought he was insane. I was like, you spent how much money on all this shit that we bought? What are you doing? I mean, you need to get a job, you're not gonna become a millionaire overnight here. And I did it'cause I'm always supporting Omar. No matter what, I will always support my husband. Right. But I always tell people, I, I said this in a training and I got emotional about it, but this platform that Omar created, because I can't take credit a majority of that. No, no, that's not a hundred percent true. But go ahead. It is true. It is true. But, but this platform literally saved my life because this is what he was talking about me teaching what we're doing today. And I didn't buy into that until I realized I wasn't meant to be at the college. I'm not meant to be an instructor, a professor, a faculty member. That's not where I'm supposed to be,'cause it didn't happen. And jumped into this other organization that was insane. And I have to leave it because it's affecting me mentally and physically. Now what am I gonna do? This is all I have. If I didn't have this, what would I be doing? I'd be working at another job that I don't wanna be at, you know, and this is where I'm meant to be, and I'm finding my voice. I'm still sort of very fragile with it, and still kind of like, I'm not a hundred percent sure and whatever. But when I do the trainings that I'm doing, I feel good and I feel alive, and I feel connected. And if only I were doing more of those, I would be like, unbelievable. But like Omar was saying the other day, because my confidence had gotten really low,'cause I took blow after blow after blow from all these no's and rejections and just eating at my confidence. And I'm like, what is wrong with me? Somebody told me, I, my dissertation is shitty now too. Like, oh my God, everything is wrong with me.

Caroline Sangal: 47:05

But you had to know that so that you can help people who are having those feelings, because it's one thing to be like, oh, well that place is toxic, and it's another thing to be like, damn, this is toxic.

Dr. Jesse and Omar: 47:16

Eye opening for sure.

Caroline Sangal: 47:18

Now, when you, it was affecting your body and all that, like from being at the toxic, like,'cause I can imagine on the one hand being at the university and you had set so much up and like, this is how it's supposed to work and to feel that they're not truly appreciating and seeing how awesome you are and giving you this thing that you worked so hard for so long for, that's one set of feelings. And then the toxic workplace, you're saying it's affecting you, like how was that affecting you? Like what did you feel like, were you angry or were you crying? How did it show up for you?

Dr. Jesse and Omar: 47:49

This toxic organization that I went to, I was there for six months. They were paying me very well, and the feelings that I was getting was literally, this person was literally making me feel like you have a doctorate and what, what have you done? What are you doing here? Like, you should be taking the bull by the horns and running this place. And I'm like, could do that, but I need to know what we're doing.

Caroline Sangal: 48:17

Right.

Dr. Jesse and Omar: 48:18

What's our vision? What is our strategic opinion? Talk to me here, like, this is my area of expertise. I can do this. And it really was biting into all these little, and I say biting because she was just poking at little things and really attacking my character and my integrity. it was literally moments where I would walk out of the office and get in the car and I was crying. And I, I don't, I don't cry. I never cried at work. I don't have to cry at work. I was crying in my car and then going back in and trying to get myself together and everybody knew what was going on and at that six month point I was telling Omar, I don't know how much I, I can't do this. She's making me crazy. Like, I have no idea. Help me, tell me if I'm answering this email right? Like literally I was having him, am I doing everything? Are there bullet points? This? And he is like, yeah, if that's not what she wants, I don't know what the, that's ridiculous. You've taken 45 minutes to write this email. This is crazy. So, at one point I was at, in the bathroom at my job and I was crying and I stopped crying and looked in the mirror and I said to myself, I said, if you stay here, you stand for nothing.

Caroline Sangal: 49:32

Uh huh.

Dr. Jesse and Omar: 49:32

You stand for nothing.'cause none of these people will stand up to her. But if you leave, you can tell her what you need to tell her. And I knew it. I was like, if I stay here, I'm going against everything that I have ever fought for. What I defended. I defended my dissertation tooth and nail 45 minutes worth of questions, to get this degree. If I stay here, what am I standing for? So I came home and I had this email exchange, and that's when I went out and I told Omar, I'm quitting, I'm done, I'm quitting. And I had my confrontation with her, and it was amazing to tell her off, but I told her off very diplomatically. But then Omar was like, don't be nice to her. Just tell her what you gotta tell her. So he's like, you're being too nice. And I'm like, okay, hold on. But I got to tell her that she was toxic. I got to tell her that she was condescending. I got to tell her all the things. And she's like, how do you know about these cultures? I'm gonna give you a copy of my book, I'll sign it for you. But, yeah, so that was pretty much how that was. It was a lot of crying, a lot of, a lot of confidence. She killed my conf, my confidence was already low because the college had taken so much away from me, but then it got worse when I jumped ship and went to this job and knowing that it took me so long to get this job, now what am I gonna do if I leave this? I was, you know, working on trying to build it and develop it and come up with curriculum and ideas after ideas. And I just wasn't buying into it. And, I know now that this is where I belong. and even still, like I said, I'm still discovering my voice. I'm still, discovering the things that I'm passionate about I don't know. I'm getting there. I'm still a, I'm a work in progress.

Caroline Sangal: 51:14

We're all a work in progress. The day we're not a work in progress is the day we're no longer here, you know?

Dr. Jesse and Omar: 51:20

That's true.

Caroline Sangal: 51:22

Omar, how did you come up with this idea? You had been at, you know, doing the sales job at Comcast and then that wasn't it. And then back to a big stint at the Boys and Girls Club, all kinds of things where you're getting to work with young people and you're getting to do these things. But then how did it translate into young people grow up and they're still having issues like.

Dr. Jesse and Omar: 51:46

So, you know, it's interesting because, I always, you know,'cause I'm listening to her and then I'm listening and I'm thinking about what people are thinking and stuff like that. But, again, I don't want to sound overconfident, but I was good at my job, I was able, and I don't take credit for it because we did create some great teams that were able to do a lot of these things, but, because I am who I am out a little bit of an other, right? There was a lot of obstacles. Again, you win awards, but then you get overlooked for the next one, right? You develop people, you train people, and then they just, you know, they look different than you, so they promote'em ahead of you. So you see all these different things happening. So, my focus was always on the kids and the staff that I developed. That was my focus. It's like as long as I do my job for them. I'm good. And even to this day I have relationships with some amazing young people, so many of them that still call me to this day and I'm thankful that I was a part of their lives and they're doing some amazing things, but I remember there was a shift in philosophies, in Boys and Girls Club and it shifted and, took away the essence of the beauty, right. Of what it is that we did. Right. Because the mission was so powerful. And I was mission driven, right? Because, the kids used to say to me, Mr. Omar, you just love the Boys and Girls Club. But the mission of it, like the essence of what it is, right? To give a kid a sense of belonging, a sense of usefulness, a sense of influence, a sense of competence, right? Like just to be, create that, that was. To me that was like, oh, that's it, you know? That was it. And my mentor and one of my former CEOs, Mike Sancho, he's, he tells everybody, it's like, I will hire Omar any day. And you know why? Because I know that he's one and foremost taught is the kids. And it's like, by far. But with that also comes a lot of, conflict and dislike from other people. And things of that nature. So you learn and then the philosophies change. People change, and then the matrix change. What started happening is that what became important was not the outcome of the kids themselves, it was the outcomes of how we look like on paper. of it all right? So when that started to happen, I started kind of like going away, right? And then COVID hit, right? So in COVID i'm in charge of five middle schools. and I have, an AmeriCorps program. Actually it was the charge of five middle schools and about 30 something, members that I'm responsible for, but it's COVID, right? Uh, so first COVID comes in in January, and I got COVID personally. I get COVID, I get tested, I got COVID, right? So the first thing that happened was, number one, remember the policy was if you are get COVID and you get your vaccine and all that stuff, you are five days, right? And you,

Caroline Sangal: 54:49

And then wear a mask for, yeah.

Dr. Jesse and Omar: 54:50

Right. I, they wouldn't let me back to work until a month later, so I couldn't go back to work until a month later.

Caroline Sangal: 54:58

And you're in Florida,

Dr. Jesse and Omar: 55:00

Yes, I know. Precisely.

Caroline Sangal: 55:02

My kids we're in North Carolina. They didn't have school for a whole year and a half at all. It was all online.

Dr. Jesse and Omar: 55:07

Yep.

Caroline Sangal: 55:08

Yeah.

Dr. Jesse and Omar: 55:09

So I had to get tested every five days. But the national policy, you get COVID,

Caroline Sangal: 55:14

Right.

Dr. Jesse and Omar: 55:15

You could just get back to work. Right. But no, Omar had to stay away for a month. Right. I'm in charge of a school. One of my members calls me up and says, Hey, I am not feeling well. And I know this young lady, and she's just, sounds horrible, right? she says, I don't feel good. Right. And I said, have you gotten tested? And she says No. And I'm like, okay, it's seven o'clock in the morning, right? So I have to make a decision. I am the director after all right? So I called the school and I talked to the principal and I said, look, this is happening. She's like, yeah, they we're here over the weekend and they didn't look so well. Can you please keep'em away? I said, sure, no problem. Right. The principal agrees, everything's fine. I call the office, the organization, nobody answers. So I have to make a call. So I had to tell the team, you know, which one should I do? Should I take a chance and infect everybody or keep everybody away? So what happened was that, nobody will answer. And then they called me back and they say, why did you take the kids out of the, the, the group out of COVID? They need outta the school. They needed to be there. It's like, well, one person's not feeling well. I don't want to take the chance of infecting the school. So I told them all to stay away'cause they were all together on Friday'cause they had a school event. I got a writeup because of that and I refused to sign it. And it's like, I'm not signing it. And so then, you know, this is the time of like DEI. And I was never a big fan of DEI. And the reason being is because it demonized a group of people. And I don't agree with demonizing people. Right. I agree on the premise that we all, we all are created equal, right?

Caroline Sangal: 56:53

Yep.

Dr. Jesse and Omar: 56:53

And we all have different talents. But when you start demonizing people to aggrandizing a group, even if it's a group that looks like me, I'm not for that.

Caroline Sangal: 57:00

Yeah.

Dr. Jesse and Omar: 57:01

Fan of that. But what I did see is I saw a lot of stuff that shouldn't be happening in an organization like that. I reported it and they did absolutely nothing, know.

Caroline Sangal: 57:13

Now you're the problem. Now you're the problem bringing up. Yeah, I've had that before where bringing up a problem and you think you're doing the right thing because if only people would know. Surely the logic in this thing and the integrity in all of that, it's like, well, let's fix the problem and instead it backfires and now you are the problem for bringing it up and shining a light.

Dr. Jesse and Omar: 57:34

exactly. So it's all lip service, right? Because,

Caroline Sangal: 57:37

Yeah.

Dr. Jesse and Omar: 57:37

This is one of the things that, that and unfortunately I get it from Ken and I get it from my mother. It's like, I don't like lip service. It's like, you're gonna say, say what you mean. Like, be honest. You know, it's like when people make a mistake, something happens in nation and nobody wants to take responsibility for it. It's like, oh, it's that person. It's like, okay, you made a mistake. Everybody's human. But, you know, I saw a lot of that stuff and I just decided, you know what? I'm just gonna walk away. I'm gonna walk away because this is not the organization that I signed up for. This is not what I spent 17 years doing. You know, we even having meetings when I did a training and we used to start with the mission and vision to make sure that we kept that in line. They stopped doing that stuff. They started, they stopped and I'm just like, this is not it. And I even reached out to the big corporation and they did absolute, they did nothing. Right? Absolutely nothing. They talked to the board and all that stuff and nothing, it was disappointing, right? Because you see people being mistreated, you see all that stuff and you stand up but again, what I realized is that most of the time it's all lip service and it's all that. So, and again, not all organizations are run the,

Caroline Sangal: 58:44

Not all. Organizations can be good for a period of time until they aren't, and that's okay. In some ways that had to happen or you would still be there.

Dr. Jesse and Omar: 58:53

Right.

Caroline Sangal: 58:53

It's like the pain of staying the same has to become greater than the pain of being like, you know what? Deuces, I'm out. You know?

Dr. Jesse and Omar: 59:03

So then, So then what that led to was, and, this has been composting for years, right? All the stuff, all the, my twenties and all that introspection and all the calcification and all that stuff was brewing for years, for years. And I know that in the back of my head there was like, you have something to do. You got something to do. And again, it's like, what am I going to do? I don't know how. What am I supposed to do? How, why, how, and so then one day, I was watching something on YouTube and then it's the podcast thing kinda like came up and I'm like sos quest, right? I'm big into the hero's journey. I love the heroes monomyth, you know, which is literally the story of our lives, if we're aware. In the whole premise started from there. And it started with just having conversations with people about their lives, you know, just their journey. And it just started from there. we were the first, we were the first guest, you know, She was the first guest. A couple of our friends, came in and then we just started talking about different topics that was interesting. I didn't know, you know, if you look like at first 50 or 70 episodes, they, they're all over the place.

Caroline Sangal: 1:00:16

Yep.

Dr. Jesse and Omar: 1:00:16

Because

Caroline Sangal: 1:00:17

Are there now,

Dr. Jesse and Omar: 1:00:18

Yeah.

Caroline Sangal: 1:00:19

How do you know it's gonna catch on? Like, because I have my ideas of what I think would be good, I'm also gonna let the data help me understand what's actually resonating. And the reason that I left what I was doing is so that I could help more people.

Dr. Jesse and Omar: 1:00:32

Yes, exactly. So you go into that and I've always known that there was something that I needed to do I just didn't really know how. And then it started from there. And then, you go look at the episodes where she's like, I don't want to do interviews. I don't wanna do interviews. You know, and I'm like, okay. But I started just thinking about, what is this? And so I really started drawing on all the experiences, I've been a trainer with the Gap. I was a trainer with Boys and Girls Club. I was a trainer with the Boy Scouts. I was responsible for teaching the kids, you know, all the merit badges and stuff. That's always been within me, you know, it's one of gifts that I was given. And one day, I was doing a training for Polk County, AmeriCorps, Steve and Jesse came and she's never seen me do a training before. She's like, out of all the years, she has never seen me do a training. She was like, oh my God. like, you're good at this. And then she brought up the idea because the source quiz was really just talking about the heroic journey. So you could see the different facets of your life and then see how your life unfolds. The thing for me and for us was that, you got CQI right? Constant quality improvement. Right?

Caroline Sangal: 1:01:43

Yeah.

Dr. Jesse and Omar: 1:01:44

And this is the same thing that we've learned with doing the sales quest, is that you are constantly learning, constantly trying new things and trying to constantly figure out what is your voice? What is it, what's your message? How do you clarify your message? How do you syn, synthesize that message so that it resonates so that it actually helps people, you know? And that's kinda like where we are right now. We've taken the last few months after she resigned her previous job to really look at, this is what we say, this is how we see it. And more importantly, it's really based on lived experiences. Yes, there is a lot of backing up of stuff. But there's also a lot of the lived experiences, right? Because, personally speaking, I can never talk about something like I can't talk about, you know, quantum physics, you know, it is just not my thing. I'm not interested in it. I talk about what I've lived, what I know, what I've studied, what I dove myself into. I could talk about that all day. And I could also talk about it from the standpoint of particularly what it is to be, what I call in the pit, you know, in the belly of the beast, in the abyss. Like I know what it feels like. I was doing a presentation one day to a group of men and I was explaining to them, one time that I had a panic attack. I was, and I just, I was, I went like this, and it was like, I felt like I had a truck on my chest and one of the guys started sweating. He's like, I know that you're not lying, because that is exactly how it is because I've, I've felt it. Right.

Caroline Sangal: 1:03:25

Yep.

Dr. Jesse and Omar: 1:03:26

That is the type of, reality that I wanna bring, because again, I mean, this is one of the most open conversations that we have ever had, in terms of what we've done, where we are, our mistakes or failure. And sometimes we look back and you're like, man, I don't even wanna say all this because I don't wanna look back. But the reality is, is like our lives, and this is one of the realizations that really came, is like our lives unfold, regardless of how you might measure success or failure and all that stuff is like life is so much grander than just that number that you think it's, you know.

Caroline Sangal: 1:03:59

Absolutely.

Dr. Jesse and Omar: 1:04:00

It is so much grander than that. It is so much more beautiful than that. And you know, I always get the criticism that I'm always looking at, the world would color our eyes, right? But I am of the belief that we are all aspects of the universe. And, some of us just don't know it as much as some others do, but my job is to see beyond the facade but also see that when people are hurting people, you know, that's the one thing that personally gets me upset is like when people purposefully hurt others because they think that they're better than

Caroline Sangal: 1:04:33

Well, but hurt people, hurt people, right? So that thinking you're better than somebody is af front.

Dr. Jesse and Omar: 1:04:39

Yes.

Caroline Sangal: 1:04:40

Thank you both so far for just being so super vulnerable and sharing that. Because for me personally, I would much rather learn from and go through something with somebody who's been through stuff, not somebody who just read about stuff.

Dr. Jesse and Omar: 1:04:54

Yeah.

Caroline Sangal: 1:04:55

Or somebody that has and, and there's a lot that goes into any degree, especially a PhD, because a PhD after a while just becomes, you are at the mercy. Your dissertation committee is and what those people think. And so it's like, okay, you do your classes and then you start doing your research and then you write it up. And even that's a whole ball of wax because it's like you gotta have people deciding that you're good enough to get it to the point, and then you have that. But it's like, that is an obstacle course, but. Not everybody understands all that goes through behind the stories or it just looks really good. It's like, you know, LinkedIn is just gonna show this, this, this, this, this, and blah. And here we are, and now we have a souls quest and come on over everybody. Right? And I, I'm just so thankful that you shared, and I know there's a lot more, to it. But thank you both for sharing this thing and help people understand how do people work with you now?'Cause they've gotten to know a little bit more about you. I know you have one-on-one, you got some group stuff, but like, if somebody's been intrigued and if your voice is resonating on their journey differently than mine is resonating, then they need to go see you.

Dr. Jesse and Omar: 1:06:12

You could find us at ASQempowerment.com, right? And I wanna kind of, give you a little tidbit of what it is that we do. Right. There's this line in the Quran and it says, how dare you think you're gonna enter the Garden of Bliss without facing the trials as those that came before you. Right. And, I always wanna warn people because it does require what we do. It does require really brutally honest, being honest with yourself, it also requires a certain level of, discipline. You know, I know that we live in a very expedient and self-gratifying, instant gratification society. But, I will tell you. That, that's not the path for your fulfillment. Right? It doesn't have to be difficult. And that's not what I'm saying. It doesn't have to be difficult, uh, but it does require you to be brutally honest and it requires you to be present. Right. And a lot of the practices that we do on a regular basis. To this day, we wake up in the morning and we do our practices throughout the evening. Most of it, believe it or not, it's really about, like I mentioned the different aspects of yourself, we call it, first understanding the desire, gain weight. You know, we fancy ourselves to be completely intellectual, right, and logical, or we're just primarily emotional and that's it. But there are drives that we have, that we have to be cognizant of. Jesse talked about that need for belonging. In this group, right? We need to be able to understand that. We need to understand why do we seek power, right? We need to understand that we also have aspects of ourselves that need for exploration, right? That need to discover something or more to be able to say, what is that out there? That's something that, that is one of the drives that we have completely either eradicated or completely suppressed, So when we want to, we wanna talk about those type of things. So, to find us, yes, find us at justgroupempowerment.com. We start with our coherence quiz. It's a brief quiz, 10 questions in which it shows you where you are on all these different things from, from what your desires, from your, um, how you view the world, your perspective, your philosophy of life. Do you have one? So we are going through all those things and it is, we call ourselves psycho spiritual, we have a beautiful definition of spiritual, which is just life. You know, you are an aspect of life and that's pretty much it. You know, look at the universe, the universe, banks sometimes, and then beautiful things come out and he stays there for a little bit. Then he goes away, then he comes back again. You are that. We are it. And we have to start looking at ourselves like that because our calling is here and now. That's what we teach. We are guides, we're not coaches. I do, although I am a coach. No, we are guides. We, we just hold a light, you know, and we show you this is, watch out for this and watch out for that. At this moment I'm building curriculum for, our future membership site. We don't have that yet, but we are working on that. We have a book coming out, A Souls Quest, A Transformational Guide to Life and Leadership. And Leadership. You can find us on all social media outlets too. Our, on almost every single handle. Probably just not, just not X, not X. We don't, I don't, we don't have time for X.

Caroline Sangal: 1:09:36

There's a lot.

Dr. Jesse and Omar: 1:09:36

It's, we'd love to have people connect with us. We also have a monthly webinar that we do, which is the third Wednesday of every month. And some of the things that we do, I mean, we focus on life and leadership and culture, right. Those three things, because not separate, right. It's,

Caroline Sangal: 1:09:50

Right.

Dr. Jesse and Omar: 1:09:51

You lead your family first and foremost you lead your life, you lead your family. You impact culture. Either you work culture or culture as a whole, and it's important that you see the beauty and the importance of that, that we are the ones responsible for creating beauty in the world, and we are the leaders of that.

Caroline Sangal: 1:10:11

Now, I'm big on authentic success, and to me, authentic, you know, we spend a lot of our lives fitting into somebody else's definition of success. But now for you both, how do you define authentic success for you in this moment?

Dr. Jesse and Omar: 1:10:28

I define it as being able to speak my truth, and I have been able to do that in the last two hours and plus. And that has been very, liberating, you know, because people don't ask us about our life, like Omar said, this is probably the most in-depth interview that we have ever had. And you touched points that I was like, oh God, I gotta wear waterproof mascara this time. And I think for me, that's what that means for me, is just speaking my truth without violating the rights of anybody else.

Caroline Sangal: 1:11:03

Yeah. Thank you for feeling comfortable to do that. Omar, what about you?

Dr. Jesse and Omar: 1:11:07

You helped.

Caroline Sangal: 1:11:09

Thank you.

Dr. Jesse and Omar: 1:11:09

For me, as poetic as it may sound, it's almost like I just wanna just leave it all out. I don't want to hold anything in. I just wanna let it go. All, all go. And, and, my mandate,'cause this is one of the philosophies of my life, and again, I do, do tend to be a little poetic, just as the, she's more practical, a lot more practical than I am. when I was a boy Scout and I did my confirmation, Ken gave me a gift and gave myself and Danny a gift. And it was a hundred dollars bill and a$2 bill. And he gave us a note and he said, today you're, now you're going to, you are told that you got the Holy Spirit and all that stuff, but it's like, it's like every, any other muscle of your body, if you don't use it, you lose it. And then, but I want you to, to make sure that I make the point. gonna give you a hundred dollars bill and a$2 bill. The$100 bill, you have to use it. There's no saving, there's nothing. You have to use it because I want you to understand power. I want you to understand whole power in your hand and know that it's fleeting, That it's gonna come and it is gonna go. But I want you to keep the$2 bill, because I need you to understand this one lesson, power, everlasting power. It's influencing others by the way that you live your life.

Caroline Sangal: 1:12:27

Hmm.

Dr. Jesse and Omar: 1:12:28

And then he said at the end, and so what are you going to do? Are you going to, just look, look for the fleeting power? Or you going to live by influencing others? And he said, the choice is yours. So as poetic as that may sound, that's always been a cornerstone of what I, my life and my challenge and my. My quest has been about how do I do that? A soul's quest is kind of that vehicle for me to be able to do that, to be able to impact others positively. Impact others by sharing what I've learned throughout my life.

Caroline Sangal: 1:13:08

Thank you both so very much for your willingness to share, for your patience, and for your ability to get deep and share it and go all out there. But I appreciate you being a part of the podcast.

Dr. Jesse and Omar: 1:13:21

Thank you. This was awesome. Thank you for having us. It was a pleasure. This was amazing. A lot of fun.

1:13:25

Dr. Jesse and Omar, thank you so much for your honesty, your depth, and how real you were willing to be. If their work speaks to you, please connect with them at asqempowerment.com Thanks for listening to your next success with Dr. Caroline Sangal. Remember, authentic success is yours to define and includes aligning your career to support the life you want.