0:04

Have you ever had a job end before you were ready? And then wondered, who am I now and what comes next? In this episode, I'm talking with Kelly Schuknecht about what happens after that kind of ending and how you can turn it into a beginning that actually fits. If you're in a season of reinvention or feeling pulled toward more authentic leadership, this conversation will help you see new possibilities for your own next success.

Caroline 0:37

This is the Your Next Success podcast, and I'm your host, Dr. Caroline Sangal. I'm a life first career coach and strategist on a mission to normalize questioning your career because I believe each of us is made on purpose for a purpose only we can fulfill. The longer we live out of alignment with who we are, what we do best, and why we're here, the more we miss out. And the more the world misses out on what only we can give. The Your Next Success Podcast is where we explore how to build a career that truly fuels your life. We talk about self-discovery, smart job, search strategies, professional growth, and you'll hear stories from people who've navigated big career transitions themselves so you can see what it's really like to make bold changes and feel inspired to create your own version of authentic success, one that is aligned, meaningful, and truly yours.

1:42

Today I am excited to introduce you to Kelly Schuknecht. Kelly has built a career at the intersection of marketing, books and leadership, helping founders and professionals share their ideas more visibly through content podcasts and online platforms. She understands both the behind the scenes work of building a brand and the very human side of stepping forward as the face of your own story. Kelly's journey offers both reassurance and direction. If you've ever had a role and before you are ready through a layoff or restructure, or a decision made without your input, you know how disorienting it can feel. All of a sudden you're asking big questions, what do I actually want now? How do I talk about my story? Can I lead in a way that feels true to me instead of just on brand for someone else? In this episode, we talk about her career journey. Then later how Kelly processed an ending she didn't choose, and what helped her move forward with intention. The difference between performing as a leader and leading authentically, why visibility matters for your career, and how you can show up online without feeling fake and practical ideas for treating your own career as an evolving story you're allowed to rewrite. If you're feeling the pull towards your next chapter and want it to feel more aligned, this conversation is for you. Let's dive into my conversation with Kelly Schuknecht.

Caroline 3:17

Welcome Kelly to your next success. I've been excited about this conversation for several weeks now, so I'm glad it's finally happening.

Kelly 3:26

Well, thank you for having me on. I'm excited about it too. I love talking about my career path and seeing how it helps inspire other people.

Caroline 3:34

Yes, because so many times these stories are just kind of like hidden, or whenever anybody's contemplating a possible move, it just seems like, why are you even thinking that? Or there's a lot of shame or guilt that comes with it. So thank you so much in advance for helping to like peel back the curtain and allow for some of those hidden things to become known and and support people as they're making those transitions.

Kelly 3:57

Absolutely.

Caroline 4:00

Okay, so we're gonna get to all the amazing ways that you help people. And I know that maybe some listeners might be inspired and want to end up working with you. We're gonna get to that, but if we could dial it way, way, way back, I'd love to know, like childhood wise, where did you grow up? What kind of things fascinated you when you were little?

Kelly 4:21

I grew up in Omaha, Nebraska. And what kinds of things fascinated me? I remember playing outside a lot. Back then we didn't have, I can age myself here, but we didn't have much for TV or devices or anything like that. I do remember when I was growing up, we had a park across the street and spending countless hours in the park with my friends and just exploring outside.

Caroline 4:47

And so was it a park with like swings and a playground or was it a park with like hiking and cool stuff too? Like, or was it all of those? What kind of park?

Kelly 4:55

Kinda all of those. So the park across from my house had a tennis court, and then it had all the playgrounds stuff but it was like all spread out. So it was really big and then it had kinda a walking path around it. And then also like a creek and more nature kind of setting.

Caroline 5:10

Wow.

Kelly 5:11

To the side there. So yeah. Great place to explore as a kid.

Caroline 5:14

Yeah. What an ideal, that'd be a place that's also nice to travel to. And the fact that you could just like walk on over like, how amazing was that. That's super cool. Now how about like school-wise, were there any particular subjects that you were loving more than others in those early years?

Kelly 5:32

I always was. So my dad was an accountant and my mom was a reading teacher, and I think that I had both sides of that in my brain. I think my siblings and I all do. I was good in reading in English classes, things like that. I was good in math. All the AP, calculus, all that, whatever. So those were things that I did that came easily for me. Um. I, I more distinctly remember the things I really didn't like, uh, like debate class or um, science. I didn't like any science classes. Uh, So those were the things that were more challenging for me.

Caroline 6:12

What was it about those that you feel like, or what were some inklings you were starting to realize? Was it the teacher or was it the subject?

Kelly 6:22

It's the subject. I am terrible at anything science like I, I didn't really know that that well about myself until I married my husband, who can tell you every single like muscle and body part, like everything. You know, like. All of that is like things he remembers and like to me. I was like, I don't do that. I don't memorize things well. I'm better at like concepts that build on each other. And so anything with science, it's like you have to remember the periodic table or you have to remember like the anatomy. Like you have to remember all these things. And I was just terrible at those kinds of things. Debate class on the other hand was more of just, I hated getting up in front of people. So debate, you have to be you're on the spot, right? Everyone's looking at you and I hated

Caroline 7:05

Yeah.

Kelly 7:06

That kind of thing.

Caroline 7:08

So do you think you're more of an introvert then?

Kelly 7:10

Absolutely. Yeah.

Caroline 7:13

Interesting. I don't know if you remember, but my background was hard science, right? So chemistry and then polymer science. But, I feel like maybe the social sciences as far as like experimenting and trying again and having a hypothesis to chase it as far as people development. Though that aspect of science or what's working or how to do I feel like that one you've got. So I wouldn't give all science maybe a bad rap 'cause you have some things that you do love. But yeah, I agree. Some of them, you know, the wrote memorization of whatever the case may be. I was just talking with somebody else as far as like dates of things and history. Like maybe you remembered those as well. I did not have that. And nor do I remember like exactly what time my kids were born. I'm like, they were born and they're still living. Like that's the extent. But those moms at the park, that would be like, oh, little Susie is 17 months in two days. And I'm like, what the heck? Like how do you know that, you know? Susie's one, okay? Yeah. Well, cool. But what about activity wise? Were there certain activities that you were doing beyond school?

Kelly 8:19

Yeah, I was a softball player. So I played high school softball. I dabbled in tennis and swimming my freshman year and then was like, Nope, not doing that. So anyways, but I was a softball player and I was very involved in my church, my parents go to a large church in Omaha and we had a big youth group, so I was very involved in that all through high school.

Caroline 8:43

Oh, that's awesome. And now as you were nearing the end of high school, how did you decide about college or where you wanted to go or what did you wanna study? Like what went into those decisions?

Kelly 8:53

So it's such a great question. Right now, I'm watching my kid go through that, right? So my daughter's a sophomore, or no, sorry, she's a junior in college and my boys are a senior and junior in high school. So they're just all kinda starting to think about what do they wanna do? And I feel like for my daughter, it was very very clear. I don't know that she knows what she wants to do job wise, but she knew what she wanted to study. She's studying business finance. That was just like, she was very clear about what she wanted to do. And I look back at those times and uh, I was not that way. I was not clear at all on what I was good at, what I should study, what I wanted to study.

Caroline 9:33

Yeah.

Kelly 9:33

I just, I had no idea. So I didn't actually pick a college until I was out of high school that summer. I decided uh, just to stay local and um, I ended up graduating from James Madison University in Virginia. But, my first year I went to the University of Nebraska, I was like, I'm just gonna go here and then it was over time that I realized like I wanted to get away from home. I wanted to go somewhere and explore. So I ended up transfering. The whole time I really had no idea what I wanted to study. I think I knew the things I didn't wanna study. My mom was a teacher, my sister was a teacher, and I didn't wanna go into teaching because I was fearful of being in front of people and you had to record yourself. And I remember like reading that in the class descriptions that you had to record yourself teaching. And I was like, nope, I'm not doing that. That was why I chose not to go that path.

Caroline 10:24

I got it. Yeah. Interesting. And now you have this like successful podcast and you help me, but that's so cool. Okay.

Kelly 10:30

Yeah. And that's part of my journey, right? I was learning that um, there was things that I could do well, I just, I shied away from them. But, so yeah, So I didn't wanna go into teaching. Um, you know, I, I didn't, I wasn't interested in the business college at the time. Like, I, Now I look back and I should have done that. But, um, but yeah, So I studied Spanish because I wanted to work with Spanish speaking women. So I got my degree in Spanish and I started my career in working in a domestic violence shelter in Denver, where I was working with the Spanish speaking women.

Caroline 11:01

How did that interest come about? To even get interested from being in Nebraska?

Kelly 11:07

Yep.

Caroline 11:07

How'd that, how did that? Yeah.

Kelly 11:09

Yeah.

Caroline 11:09

Sorry.

Kelly 11:10

I mentioned that I had got, uh, was really involved in my church and we had gone on a missions trip in between my junior and senior years of high school. I went on a missions trip to Ecuador and it was on that trip that I wanted to, my real goal was to be a missionary. That's what I saw myself doing. And then when I so, you know, studying Spanish was just very natural. Like, I'm gonna study Spanish and then I can go and be a missionary anywhere, anywhere spanish speaking. Um, And then through the course of college, I wasn't married and I then I, when I got out of college, I was like, I don't wanna travel by myself and so I ended up like, well, I'll just get this job in Denver. I always wanted to live in Colorado. And so I moved to Colorado then and took this job in the Denver area and that was like my backup. So instead of going to a foreign country, I was working with Spanish speaking women. But I saw within the first couple years of working there that I really wasn't good at the uh, client. I don't know how to say it, but like the therapeutic part of the work, like I was not good at working with the clients and hearing their stories and dealing with just the, the day-to-day stuff that happens in a, in a domestic violence shelter. I wasn't fullfilled in that work. And what I found that fullfilled me was uh, doing the grant writing, doing the stats for the shelter. So non-profits have to report to their funders and I just found myself going down this path of working on, uh, in the administration side within the shelter, which then didn't require my Spanish skills, but it was more of a fit for what I was actually the work I was good at. And that made sense for me and from there it was like just the next thing and the next thing. So it really, evolved quickly.

Caroline 13:06

I think that's awesome that you listen to yourself though. Because you know, if you do show up as an introvert and kind of enjoying that behind the scenes supporting thing, then yeah, I can imagine that not only being in front of people, but also speaking another language that even though you're proficient at, it's still like domestic violence seems like high stakes crisis. Like you gotta say the right thing, like right now, like that would be a lot of pressure. And being in front. But that you listened and realized and then adjusted and shifted, that's really special. Sometimes people just override that and continue to put themselves in situations that are uncomfortable just to be uncomfortable, not necessarily for a growth period. I'm impressed by that. All right, so as you kind of went through that, then what made you want to embark on the next chapter beyond that service?

Kelly 13:57

Uh, well, So I ha I started having kids and um, you know, just going back to the like that quick evolution of like learning more about myself. I now look at that, that phase of life so differently. I'm watching my kids kind of decide what they wanna do, and I just know. Having a degree is important or I mean, you don't have to have a degree, but like it's great to go to college and get your degree, but you don't have to have it all figured out. And I think sometimes we go into college, thinking we need to know, you know, what the next five, ten years is gonna look like. And for me, I had no clue. I was just kind of following what made sense to me at the time.

Caroline 14:31

Yeah. That's part of why I want to and I do help that age as well 'cause I feel like in those ages and stages, although they were like, there's always been the interest assessments, right? But like, interests change. So if you're asking a 15 to 18-year-old to decide their college major based on what they're interested in, well that child, 10 years before loved Barbies and dinosaurs and 10 years from then is gonna love something else too. So it's like that's one component. But I feel like that's the absolute worst advice to tell someone. And I also understand that given guidance counselors and the materials that they have, those assessments are free and they're quick. So to try to get, one of the things that I'll help people with, regardless of the the stage of their career, when they really wanna dig deep into who they are, what they do best is an objective performance based measurement of 18 different areas. To be like, okay, here's how your natural abilities are poured into you. This is your starting point. And from that, there's some work and some tasks that are gonna energize you if it's aligned with how you're wired or will drain you. If it's counter to how you're wired. Now, of course you can build skills in either direction, but if you're building a skill on top of something that's not your hard wiring, when you stop doing it, you lose it, right? And you have to just kind of know and be able to account for that. So even for me realizing, maybe some of the dates things or the the number things, like I could do them. I got the A and boy, I am so glad that on the regular I'm not doing those things these days. Yeah. And then just to follow that up, to finish that off. I do have that assessment can tie into the government's entire database of over 600 careers that are for people who choose to do higher education beyond high school. And it gives someone a starting point of, okay, based on how you're hardwired, here's your top 50. And then from there we can go into is there particular area that's fascinates you? Like, is it medical or is it, building things? Are you introvert, extrovert, generalist, specialist? How does all of this work? And here's a starting point of where you can maybe go and try to find people in those careers to learn. What do they do to try to have a try before you buy kind of thing. I wish I had that. On one hand I would've saved a lot of time. On the other hand, all those experiences that I had made me who I am today. So it's kind of this. Ah,

Kelly 17:00

Absolutely. Yeah. Absolutely. I wish I

Caroline 17:03

Yeah.

Kelly 17:04

like that, something like that, that would've helped me understand what I, I would have been good at, what I would have. Um, but I really had no clue, you know? But again each kind of step kind of led me to the next thing, and, and that's okay. That was my, that was my journey. And you know, I, I. I don't wish any of it away. Um, I just look at my kids and think, you know, I hope they have a little more clarity around their skills and, you know, the, the, their interests.

Caroline 17:30

Same.

Kelly 17:31

but, But yeah. So back to your question where you asked uh, kind of what led to the next thing for me, um, I started having kids. So I, uh, I was working in the domestic violence shelter, I had my daughter. I was pregnant with my son, and I desperately wanted to work from home at that time, and this was 18 years ago. So working from home was not common back then.

Caroline 17:56

Yeah.

Kelly 17:57

But I was just determined to find a job working from home. And I did, and it happened to be in publishing. I spent the next 10 years of my career in a publishing company. I pretty quickly became one of the first directors within the company. It was a small family owned company, uh, and then became the executive vice president, uh, reporting to the, the owners. And I was there 10 years. Uh, and I gained so much, so many skills and experience, you know, from, from being there that um, you know, I, is just something I wouldn't have studied, you know, I wouldn't have gone down this path. I just kind of happened into this role that that led to really kind of the direction of the rest of my career.

Caroline 18:42

Wow. and it was always remote?

Kelly 18:45

Yeah. Mm-hmm. The company was fully remote. At the time, they didn't even tell people that they were remote 'cause they, it was like seen as like not a legitimate company. And the authors that worked with us didn't know that we didn't have an office, but they were all over the, the country, all over the world. And, um, so yeah, so we, we all worked from home and, um, and I think that because that was so new, like remote work wasn't a thing yet, there wasn't video. Like we didn't have video calls in 2007. So I think what really worked well for me was that I was introverted and did like working with my heads down and I'd put the kids to bed and I would work, and I actually was thriving in this career that, like I said, I never would have gone down that path. But it was such a great fit for me where I became a leader within the company and, just was given so much more responsibility than I ever expected. and it fit really well with my life, with what I needed with a job, with my skills. So that's why I was there 10 years. It just was really a great fit for me.

Caroline 19:53

I love that because that's what I want people to be able to do is figure out, you know, what do you want your life to look like, and then how can your career fuel that life instead of detract from it. So it sounds like that was really ahead of its time in that it was remote and it sounds like you had flexibility to choose when you worked and you could build that around what worked for you at the age and stage of what was happening with your family. So that's really special. I'm sure there's things that you drew from that, that you're now utilizing now, but that's still a chapter or two ahead. So then with that being such an amazing experience, what led you to want to do something different beyond that? I mean, I guess that I, being at a small family company myself prior to this, I loved it for the most part. And there came a time where if I projected into the future what I was going to be doing, the reality was that wasn't my family, it wasn't my last name, and I kind of reached a limit of what I could do. So I don't know. Was that your experience?

Kelly 20:53

Yeah, absolutely. I think, uh, like I said, the, the job itself, I, I, after 10 years, I couldn't hardly imagine what else was out there for me. You know, it's like that, that was all I knew. But I also, I just felt kind of stuck. You know, I was, um, I don't know, in my late thirties at the time and just felt like, like is this all there? Is? Like, I feel like there's more out there and, so um, I just started kind of.

Caroline 21:22

I.

Kelly 21:23

dreaming about what that might be. And um, I actually started just doing some freelance work. Uh, just started picking up some odd jobs and things. Um, and then from there, that led to the next job that I had, which was uh, marketing. I became the marketing director for uh, an accounting firm. Um, They were needing somebody in marketing and, and a big part of my role when I was in the publishing company was the, the corporate marketing for the, the publishing company itself. so the, It made sense. I you know, started working this marketing job. I ended up building a marketing department. Ended up helping grow the company from, it was around 4 million when I came on to 12 million when I left.

Caroline 22:06

Wow.

Kelly 22:07

So that was kind of the next phase for me was, um, it almost felt like taking a step back, going from being an executive vice president to a marketing director. But, um, I actually, it opened up this new world for me where I was working in a different type of company. I was learning new skills, new, you know, new things, and I was able to build out this team. And that was all, you know, that it was another just great phase of my career. Um, I feel like I know you're gonna ask the next question is what led you to leave there?

Caroline 22:39

Well, I think sometimes, you know, we can be good at something, we can be very successful by somebody else's measure. And yet for me, I started, I didn't even connect it, but there were some things going on with my, you know, I feel like there's performance, there's relationships and there's wellbeing. And my performance had always been top notch, but my relationships and my wellbeing were starting to take a hit that I wasn't even aware was happening until my husband kind of sat me down one day. But I'm curious also, this chapter that you were in, was that also remote or were you at an office?

Kelly 23:18

Fully remote.

Caroline 23:19

Wow. Okay. And so in being this top performing really huge growth that you were able to experience there, how were your relationships and your well-being? Was that performance taking a toll on you in any way?

Kelly 23:36

Yeah.

Caroline 23:37

That you were aware of?

Kelly 23:38

Um, so I can say the, well, So lemme tell you why I left there, and then I'll go back to that because, um. it wasn't my choice to leave. So the company that I was working for was acquired and um, so I kind of, I kind of knew it was coming, that being in marketing, when you get acquired by a larger company, they already have a marketing department.

Caroline 24:00

Yeah.

Kelly 24:00

I could see that that that was the direction that it was gonna go. And after, um, it was actually a couple of years into the acquisition. Um, But I had those two years to really like start thinking about what might be next for me. But in, So to answer the, the direct question in that two years where like I knew probably my job was going to be, or I knew my job was at risk, I knew there was gonna be some sort of change. You never can see what's on that other side, right? Like I had no idea what else could be out there for me because here I was in this job that I had loved, right? But those last two years, I didn't love it. Um, we were acquired, there was a lot of politics. You know, We went from being a $12 million company to now being part of a $65 million company. It became very corporate. Um, I had less and less say over my day-to-day job about the direction of the marketing. You know, All of these things were really challenging me and as far as like the relationships, I would say in my personal life it was fine. You know, I could separate work and, and then personal life, right? But in the workplace, it just became really challenging. Like I struggled with trusting certain people because of the political environment that we were in. Um, In fact, it was just, it was this week, last year, I was at my la one of my last meetings with that company where I sat through the meeting and I, I like, would go to my room, my hotel room after the meeting and just be in tears because I was like, I don't understand what's happening. I was just feeling this tension. Two weeks later, I lost my job, but I didn't understand at the time what was going on. I just was like, why are certain people talking about projects and things as if I'm not going to be there to do them?

Caroline 25:50

Aha. And your body was picking up on that though, right? Because this uncertainty and this thing, like I remember prior to my layoff, I saw the HR lady in our building and I was like, technology. And I'm like, why the heck is this lady there? And she was like copying stuff and I had sent something to the printer, which was the copier, and I went to get my thing and she was like. Now in hindsight, she was probably getting all our packages printed out and ready to go, and that's why she was so like shifty. But like I picked up on that, but I didn't even know, I had never experienced that. I didn't know where to place that feeling or that thing. But, interesting that even, you know, you were able, like, you picked up on that your body knew something was gonna happen.

Kelly 26:34

When

Caroline 26:34

Yeah.

Kelly 26:35

My, I was not, I was not, well, those last two years I actually trained for a marathon, so not the last year, but the, the second to last year I was there. I trained for a marathon and I think that I, my brain was like, I need something outside of this workplace to put my energy into and to be consumed with and um, and I needed to burn those, that, that energy every day because there was just so much negativity going on just around me that I look back and I'm like, I know that's what was going on for me. Like I needed something outside of work. So relationships were challenged within the workplace, well-being was challenged. Um, And it, it was time, you know, it was time to go and I'm grateful that I was let go, um, but at the time it didn't feel so wonderful.

Caroline 27:24

Correct. Like when I was laid off, I was like, seriously, me? I was in my, very high ego twenties, and me, my two technicians and 297 other people, and yet. In my early twenties, I'm kind of thinking about the people whose names weren't on the list, and I'm just like, seriously, you kept them? How is it that you keep them? And now I'm like, thank God I got laid off because not only did that help me have empathy in my chapter in recruiting and talking to other professionals who were just on the wrong end of a business decision. But also it propelled me forward and I wouldn't be where I am today, 'cause I really seriously thought I was gonna stay at that company for 30, 40 years. That was just my, naive nature. Okay. So this reduction in force type of thing happens to you and on one hand, because your well-being wasn't necessarily the greatest. And by the way, I applaud you for that year before, for kind of recognizing something and giving yourself an outlet. 'Cause that's also something that's not many people don't do that. They just override it. They feel bad, they start imploding, and you gave yourself a healthy outlet to do something constructive and allow that stuff to kind of move through, even though, just intuitively, I'm so impressed with some of the things that you've been doing. Okay, so. Then what happened? Like, what did you feel? What did you do after that? After that layoff?

Kelly 28:51

So think, I took 24 hours of just like being upset, being mad, being stressed, you know, all the things, right? And I told my husband, I'm gonna spend every day, I'm gonna apply for 10 jobs and then I'm gonna move on and I'm gonna start working on this company that I had been thinking about for the, the previous two years. You know? So for two years I had been thinking about this company. I actually started a website. I had, I had a general idea in my head of what we were going to do. Um. But I didn't wanna go all in on it because that was too scary. I'm not a risk, a huge risk taker. So I was like, I'm gonna, you know, first thing I'm gonna do is apply for jobs and then I'm gonna work on that. And then the first day, so it was, it was a Thursday, I was laid off on Friday morning, I'm like, okay, I'm gonna do this. And I start applying for jobs. By the middle of the day I was like, I can't do this. I cannot do this anymore. I cannot keep putting in applications and hope that somebody sees value in me because I know my value. And job applications Before when I had gone through, you know, trying to apply for jobs, uh, in between the last kind of um, change, I remember getting a, a no letter from uh, a, a job I had applied for saying we're really looking for somebody with more experience managing people. And I was like, did you look at my resume? I was an executive vice president, managing everyone in the company.

Caroline 30:18

Yeah.

Kelly 30:19

It's just is so frustrating. And I was like, I was having flashbacks of those, those kinds of messages that had gotten those you know whatever people turning me down. Right. The rejections

Caroline 30:27

Yeah, like external rejections. And how do you not take it personally? 'Cause you're so vulnerable in that position, you're looking for something else. You're trusting and hoping, and then to get that it's just, ugh. You know, like you're kicked down or something.

Kelly 30:39

Gimme an interview? Yeah. I just I can't do this. So I decided that day, like 24 hours later, to go all in on building a business and um, so I spent the next week just talking to people, like just people I announced to my network on LinkedIn what had happened. And so I had people reaching out to me. I was scheduling calls with people. Um, Some people I knew, well, some people I didn't know very well. You know, Just having every conversation I could possibly have with people and just starting to get my head around what was next for me. What was that, What was that gonna look like? And a lot of those conversations actually helped me decide how to move forward, but not in the way that you think. Um, I would have people tell me, oh, you don't wanna do this. I had somebody say, you don't wanna, you don't wanna build a team 'cause then you have to manage people and you know, you have to worry about hiring and firing and all this stuff. And I was like, no, actually, I loved building a team and I love working with a team. I don't wanna be a solopreneur. I don't wanna do it all myself. I had people tell me you know, just certain things that they would tell me not to do. Those were the conversations that really helped me see that like, when I was feeling the pull of like. I don't wanna listen to you. I don't, I don't agree with you. I was like, okay. Those are the things that like, I, I just started making decisions every day based on what was really, that pull within me, what I was feeling. um, So the second week in November, I registered my business and started that full steam ahead. And, um, I was able to replace my corporate income and hire three people within six months. And I never would've imagined that that would've been possible. But I look back and I'm just like, it was what was supposed to happen. It was where it was supposed to be. It was what I was supposed to do next and I just needed to listen and be open to that, right? If I had forced myself to be miserable and apply for jobs and I'm not telling people not to apply for jobs. If you are being called to work for somebody else and you have a certain job that you love like, go for it. I'm saying, listen to yourself 'cause I was miserable and I needed to, I needed to try doing it on my own or I would've regretted that forever.

Caroline 33:43

I too was having those messages of like, I wanted the autonomy, I wanted the control, I wanted to be like sink or swim. I'm doing it and I know that I've always been able to swim, right? So that, that was also for me. I'm so proud of you for doing that and for knowing yourself well enough that when somebody tried to tell you what you wanted to do or didn't wanna do. You're like, no, actually that's not who I am. That's not what I wanna do. So tell people what is it that your business does now? How do you support people? What are those areas?

Kelly 34:15

It came through one of those conversations where I actually originally thought I was going to do fractional CMO services. That's what I had been thinking about for the previous two years.

Caroline 34:24

And what is that for people that don't know?

Kelly 34:27

So fractional CMO services would be where you hire somebody to come in and help you with your marketing strategy. It might be building your marketing team, it might be doing some of the marketing work for you, but a, a lot of, uh, a lot of the complaints I had heard from people about fractional CMOs was that they often come in and help you with this overall strategy. You know, Here's all the big ideas of things that you need to be doing. But what a lot of the companies that I was talking to need is really the tactical. Like, These are the things I need to do every week, every month, every quarter, and so a fractional CMO is usually like higher level and not like in into the

Caroline 35:06

Not in the weeds. Yeah.

Kelly 35:08

And so I decided rather than position myself as a fractional CMO, I wanted to get really specific. So there's two areas of where we fit, uh, what, what we do. And one of those was, again, through one of those conversations I was having with somebody early on, they said to me like, you probably don't know what you wanna do yet. And I said, no, I know exactly what I wanna do. I wanna help people who wanna develop their thought leadership platform. Start getting the speaking events and like, becoming the thought leader you know, in their, in their industry. I explained that to him and he was like, why aren't you doing that? Nobody is doing that. And I was like, that's, that's, you know,

Caroline 35:45

Ding, ding, ding.

Kelly 35:47

And so I started that uh, as I built my team, we also do outsourced marketing services. So I mentioned that fractional CMO. I don't position myself as that, but we come in, we do a workshop, we help develop a marketing plan, and then we help with the actual tactical steps of what needs to have a blog post every week, sending a newsletter once a month, uh, your social media posting what, whatever that looks like for them. We come up with that plan and then we can help them actually implement that plan. But the speaker side of it, we help people get speaking events, podcast interviews, and we do their LinkedIn management. So a lot of times those are business owners who know that, if they get out on stages and if they're present on LinkedIn, they're going to attract their target audience. And so they know they need to be doing it. They just don't have the time or the people on their team to help them with those things.

Caroline 36:39

And so how does someone, let's say on the thought leadership side, had you been trying to find speaking engagements for lots of other people before? Did you already come with that wheelhouse of knowledge of how it happens behind the scenes? Or is that something that you had to learn, you know, drinking from a fire hose?

Kelly 36:58

Um, The marketing job that I had, um. I built the marketing team, a big part of what we did was we positioned our CEO in that company as the thought leader. When we were acquired by the other firm, what they asked of me was to help uh, take subject matter experts in different industries and help them basically build out their thought leadership platform as well. So it was like the work I had done with my team within one company and decided to package that up into something that we could do for multiple people, multiple business owners in whatever their industry is. So there was an aspect to it that was very, like, that was what I had done right? That was how we helped grow the firm from 4 million to 12 million. Um, But then also when you're being hired to do this work for people, there's a little bit more of like, we need to get this done fast, right? We need to have results as quickly as possible. Then I kind of had to do a little bit of the drinking through the fire hose of like figuring out what are those databases we can be searching for events on, you know, what are the, the resources for finding podcast interviews and whatever. So those are the things I was having to do really quickly. But then, you know, now I have my team, we have our, our process is really dialed where I have an uh, account manager. account managers on my team who work directly with the clients who um, you know, use all those tools and resources that I helped uh, find. And you know, so now we have kind of a system to all, all the work that we do to, to find those events for people.

Caroline 38:27

Awesome. So this is also just very applicable for anybody who wants to definitely, yes. Small business owners, entrepreneurs, people that want to elevate their thought leadership and visibility on LinkedIn is also something that's important for anyone as they're considering what to do, you know how to be more networked or do that. But what are some of your go-to tips for people that need to elevate their LinkedIn presence, and they may be a little bit concerned about being too out there or if they were you more of an introverted kind of personality, how do you help them overcome that?

Kelly 39:05

Yeah. well For one, I do have um, a personal brand quiz that I can share with you that you can put in the show notes. So that quiz helps people think through, so it takes like three minutes and you answer some questions that help you get your head around some of the things that you're like, what are you doing to build your personal brand, and what are those things that you could be working on, and it will give you kind of a, a score and some suggestions. So that's one place to start. Um, But backing up, when I was in my, in my marketing job, uh, I remember that feeling of like, I want to develop content on LinkedIn, but I wanna be under the radar. I don't want people going, like. what is she doing over there? Like, She has this job, but she's posting content, right? Uh, That doesn't align or, or whatever. But I also didn't wanna be posting content selling services for my company. I wasn't a salesperson. I wasn't gonna, you know, I wasn't trying to do that, so for what I did, I had a year where I made myself a list of the topics that I wanted to talk about on social media, and having that list of topics helped me with just like, whenever I was trying to think about what could I post, I could reference that list and think about like, what are some of those things I could talk about today? One of those topics being remote work. So I'm, I'm a huge advocate of remote work, especially for women, because I believe that uh, my career would've been a very different uh, path if I hadn't had the opportunity to work remotely and juggle life and kids uh, for the last 18 20 years and so, so I would talk about remote work and, uh, I would talk about uh, maybe some marketing topics, uh, books. Uh, I'm a big reader, I have this background in publishing, so I would talk about some of the non-fiction books and things I was learning. Anyway, I would just have those topics and um, I forced myself every day to post something on LinkedIn everyday, five days a week um, or like a minimum of four days a week, but four to five days a week for a year. And um. It's the, it's the act of doing it that like helps you come up with ideas, like you think once I start doing it, I'm gonna run out of ideas. But really it's the doing it that then reminds you just in your day-to-day life, you think of things that like, oh, that's a great thing I could post on there. Or I'm reading this, oh, that's a great thing I could share on LinkedIn. Um, So the acts of doing it helps lead to more ideas and more content that you can, that you can share. Um, So that's one thing I suggest to people, no matter what phase you are in your career that you give yourself that goal. It doesn't have to be four or five days a week, but maybe it's twice a week that you're gonna sit down and you're gonna speak on a topic on LinkedIn and force yourself to start thinking on that topic, writing content on that topic, teaching people something you've learned. Um, Even if you're in college, um, you're learning things that you could share with people, that that will be valuable pieces of information for other people. So just getting out of your own head and, and forcing yourself to share that with the world.

Caroline 42:05

And how long of a post did you start with, was it like a couple sentences, a whole paragraph? Because I like to tell people if they're not at the original content creation yet, if they're a little bit scared about that, I have a ten four two strategy. So anytime that they get on LinkedIn, because it's gonna be better than what they're currently doing. So whether that's once a month, once a week, once a day. Ten four two, ten likes, four comments, two shares of something. So you're at least building an engagement snowball and at least while concurrently trying to grow your network of who might be helpful for you, who you might be able to learn from. All in a, not in a, Hey, I am a student looking for a job, or, Hey, I was laid off and I really need a job, but more of a, I'm so curious about your career journey. I would love to learn a little bit more about you. Would you have 15 minutes for a conversation that while doing that kind of a thing, they're building up the engagement while also growing their network. But you jumped right to original content creation, which is amazing. And where's the guidelines for somebody looking for a, okay, if I wanna branch into that, how many words am I trying to make? Is it a sentence, is it a paragraph? Is it a whole article? What do you suggest for that?

Kelly 43:26

I think it just depend on, on what you're posting. So I don't, I don't get too, uh, rigid with any uh, guidelines like that. But, um, I think the, the biggest thing is to come up with variety in what you're posting. So I would do videos and that was very awkward and uncomfortable for me at first, right? But I would do, whenever I would finish a nonfiction book, I would record a video of myself sharing what I had learned in the book, um, telling my audience what that book was about. So those types of posts people engage with differently, um, long form posts. I don't know why 'cause I feel like it's, it's weird like we have it, we have short attention spans, but for some reason long, long form posts on LinkedIn typically do perform well. Uh, So I will take, um, uh, share a story or something and turn it into, I don't know how many words it would be, but um. Maybe, maybe a hundred or something. But you know, Several have to be paragraphs, but several kind of lines, uh, paragraphs to lines where I'm sharing a story, maybe a client, uh, experience. I recently had a client ask me about the ROI of writing a book, 'cause we do ghost writing services as well for thought leaders. And one of the things you know, he was asking like, well, you know, what is the ROI if I invest in from writing a book. Uh, And so I turned that into a teaching moment of, it's not about the ROI of you know, exactly what you invest in the book is what you're gonna get back in book sales. That's not really the, what you should be looking for. What you should be looking for is the opportunities that having that book opens up for you. And anyway, so I turned just that one little kind of question from a client into this post where I'm sharing something if he's asking that other people are surely asking the same questions. And then also you know, having some, some short ones in there. I mean, I think you can kind of play with it a little bit. You could share an article with kind of your take on it before the article. I mean, There's lots of different ways that you can share content. I think, um, the, the biggest thing is just thinking about as the, the viewer, as the, the reader who's, who's getting this in their feed. Why should they stop and, and, and read it? Why, Why should they care, right? And putting yourself in their shoes and making sure you're providing value for them. So that value can be short, it can be long, it can be video, it can be image, it can be anything. But just thinking of it as the, the person who is consuming the content um, not yourself and I'm just gonna make this short so I can get something out there. Don't do that. Think about you know, how, how it's going to be perceived.

Caroline 46:01

I love it. I'm curious about ghost writing, right? On the myriad of things that I want to do in my quest for huge impact and personal goals that I've set, which I'll go ahead and say them here because that's gonna help them be pushed out even more into the universe. But I have this crazy goal to try to impact a hundred thousand lives in the next year and a million within three. So the podcast is absolutely one way to do that. And I have thought about yes, book would be something amazing to be able to put out into the world as well to help support that mission for those people that I don't get to see face to face. Okay, so I'm curious about ghost writing. How does someone overcome a limiting belief of, I wanna be authentic, and how does ghost writing even work? Does that mean if somebody is writing on your behalf? Is that removing a layer of authenticity or how does someone else help bring out a story or, and then how do they not get credit if they're writing? Like, Help me unders unpack that 'cause I'm sure other people have.

Kelly 47:10

Yeah. Um, you know, I, The way that we do it, it's all coming from the subject matter experts. So we are not, like we do, We do interviews, so we interview and get as much out of the head of that person as possible, and then we take all of that and, and we put it into writing, right? But, um, but the thoughts and the, the, the meat of the content is all coming out of the head of the, the, the, the subject matter expert. The, the, The author in the end.

Caroline 47:40

Yeah.

Kelly 47:41

So to me it's, it's not a lack of authenticity. It's really that a lot of the people that we work with tend to be, you know, business owners. They're busy, they're realistically never going to sit down and write the book, but if I can get them for an hour on in an interview and just ask them a dozen questions, right? I can get a lot of stuff outta their head, and then we can take it and do that, that deep work of sitting down and getting, getting it into a written format that, that other people can read and learn from. So I don't, I, I don't fault people for ghostwriting, you know, I think that um, that there's nothing wrong with that. Um, As far as uh, you know, the credits, um, some people will give credit to their ghost writer maybe in, in somewhere in their book. Uh, But most don't so, and that's okay. I mean, that's, That's the job of a ghost writer is to do that work and uh, that it's not for the credit that they get for doing it.

Caroline 48:39

Can someone kind of consider that it's just like a head start on editing? Because it's very common for someone to write something and then have it edited. So if you are taking something out of their head, having the words, and then now putting it in some sort of text form, then do you also have to do an editing step or ghost writing encompasses that too? So is it just like editing plus. I'm trying to rationalize this in my analytical brain.

Kelly 49:07

Well, I mean, Yeah, sure. It's editing your thoughts into something that other people can read and yeah. Um, And it's more organized, right? So taking it and organizing it. Uh, We also do editing at the end, so there is an editing phase. But, um, but yeah, I mean, I couldn't, I couldn't write a book on, um, I don't know, manufacturing. Like I couldn't write that without doing a massive amount of research. Right. Uh, But if I'm sitting down with a business owner who speaks to manufacturers, basically to know everything that, that he needs to say to those manufacturers that manufacturers need to hear. Right. He, All of that's just gonna come flowing out of him. And then I can take that I can turn it into the written, the written version of that. Um, So it's, it's really, it's. is truly authentically their, their thoughts and ideas. It's just that um, you know, they just don't typically have the time to sit down and actually write the book. Uh, As they're going from meeting to meeting and you know, just full of decision fatigue and all of those things.

Caroline 50:12

Yeah, and I imagine that your ability to apply best practices of things that you've been doing for years, coming from all of that background. It really, not only can you help get somebody's thoughts into something coherent and nice that people want to read, and you're also saving the tremendous amount of time because people aren't reinventing the wheel. They're using a perfectly functioning wheel that you already know how to do. So I can, I can see that.

Kelly 50:35

Yep.

Caroline 50:36

Why do you think so many authors or professionals kind of struggle to talk about themself or their own success, and how do you help them overcome that?

Kelly 50:46

Well, I, you know, Imposter syndrome is one of those things, right? But also just I think, um, I mean, it's just hard to talk about ourselves. Some people have no problem with that, but I think that a lot of us just struggle with. You know, We don't even know our, our, um. what makes us unique and different. You know, We don't even realize that our own experiences do make us different from other people and give us something that we can teach, teach to other people. Um, you know, I didn't understand that while I worked in publishing for 10 years and uh, it took a long time before I realized that people were asking me the same questions over and over again. How do I write a book? Right? And I'm like, what? Like those questions were, I just took for granted because it was the world that I was working in every single day.

Caroline 51:28

Yeah.

Kelly 51:28

People would ask me these questions and I would realize, well, they're not having the same experiences that I'm having every day, and they're not, you know, they're not learning the things that I'm learning. And so I have these things I can share with people. And I think it's just learning, realizing that, and that it's not a, it's not that we're self-absorbed or that we're, that we're telling people stuff that they don't need to hear. It's that we're genuinely trying to help people and uh, you know, that we're, we see that our, what we have learned over the years is something that's valuable and can be shared with other people and help them.

Caroline 51:58

Awesome. And then how do people find you or how do they work with you? What's the best way for that?

Kelly 52:05

Yeah. Uh, well, So a couple places, LinkedIn is the great place to connect with me. So if you're on LinkedIn, uh, I'm sure that you can put it in the show notes 'cause I don't have the easiest last name to spell but it is Kelly Schuknecht. Um, And then, uh, Twomilehighmarketing.com is my web, my business website where you can learn about uh, all the things that we do, the ghost writing, the speaker elevation package, and the outsourced marketing that I mentioned.

Caroline 52:32

And I'm big on authentic success, and to me that's however you define it. How do you define authentic success for you in this moment?

Kelly 52:41

Well, you know, I'm just, just coming around to almost a year in my business and for me, authentic success was when I finally put my authentic self forward and wasn't hiding behind somebody else, uh, hiding behind another CEO or somebody who was the visionary. But when I stepped into the spotlight myself, uh, things really took off for me. And I think that is because it, I am uh, authentic in, in the way that I show up with the world and, um, and that people wanna work with me. You know, I think, I mean, that's a, Seems like a silly thing to say, but when you are a business owner, when you are responsible for bringing in the business, uh, it's important that you know, people wanna work with you. And I think that um, you know, that people are buying into you and what you can provide for them. So I think for me, that that's been uh, showing up authentically and, and uh, just you know, genuinely trying to help people, I think has made all the difference.

Caroline 53:41

Well, awesome. Well, thank you so, so very much, Kelly, for sharing all your insight, your, your story, all these amazing things. I'm definitely inspired, definitely giving me some, some things to think about as well. So appreciate you for all your time today.

Kelly 53:55

Okay. Thank you.

Caroline 53:56

Thank you, Kelly, for sharing your experience and your heart with us. If Kelly's story resonated, take a moment to notice where you might be ready to rewrite a chapter, even in small ways. Maybe it's how you describe your journey, how you show up online, or how you lead in your current role while you explore what's next. If you enjoyed this episode, please like, follow, and subscribe or share it with someone who's in a season of reinvention. And remember, connect with me on LinkedIn or at Nextsuccesscareers.com to explore what your own next success could look like. Thanks for listening to Your Next Success with Dr. Caroline Sangal. Remember, authentic success is yours to define and includes aligning your career to support the life you want.